Any idea why a coastal city can't make naval units?

[lemony]

Me and a friend have been playing a world he custom built for us for a couple days now, and I've been having the most irritating problem.
I have 3 cities that are on water, and only 1 can build naval units. ALL of them can build work boats, so in theory they should be able to make naval units.
His cities, even the ones set on small inland lakes can make transports to just sit in the lake if he so desires, but mine cannot.

I was wondering what the reason for this might be?
As far as I can tell they are all connected to the same resources via railroad so the fact they aren't working right is really frustrating.

This map is a second draft in an attempt to fix it from our last game, the last game had a bunch of coast land next to the city, so we replaced it with deep ocean tiles this time and are having the same problem.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

How about uploading a save or the Worldbuilderfile?

 

[AdamCrock]

I have encountered precisely the same situation ! To fix it You'll have to have an ocean tile within the city work radius + the city must have acces to the coast line. (The city must be on the coast and be able to work the ocean tile at the same time to build naval units). Hope this helps. If You are still unable to build naval units just save and reload the game after making the apropriate adjustments

 

[Ataxerxes]

Remember, in order to build naval units your city must be on the coast of an Ocean or Sea. Ships on a lake generally cannot build naval units unless they border the Ocean or Sea as well.

 

[lemony]

Here is a save file that is a re-create.
Unfortunately since I didn't design the map I don't have the original build file and my friend had already begun tweaking the map for our next game.

I've included a couple screenshots, one is of the area I have in our current game that has the broken cities, and one is from our previous game.

In our previous game the city of Qi-pao was able to build all naval units, and the canal beneath it leads to 3 or 4 other cities to the left that can all build naval units as well with the main exit it to the territory blocked by Ashwein.

We were attempting to re-create this effect with Zin and Amiya and having the city of Talon blocking the main exit.
Our goal this game was to do a fortified small homeland and let the AI's expand and develop and grow powerful so we can have a fun end game war (which worked really well!).

I have done a lot of tampering with Amiya to see if I can fix the issue and so far nothing has worked.

Edit:
Adam I experimented with the map a bit and if I change the lagoon thing to coastal water it works, but we had it that way before and it didn't work (we never put shallow water outside of the continents as it forces both us and the AI to get stronger techs before seeking to expand off the continent). I also have no idea why all of his mini lakes work when mine do not.
He is also experimenting and we're getting different results.

 

[AdamCrock]

I have noticed some strange things in this map ... how the heck You are able to build cottages/towns on top of a forest Anyway that's not the issue at hand. See to it like this :

-Be sure that all the tiles on the coast actually are the coast tiles
-Make each city (Both Amiya and Zin) have a workable (not coast) ocean tile.

And it should work (if not reload the game. if this doesn't work it means that game engine does not recognize that the mentioned cities have access to the ocean therefore they will not be allowed to build naval units).

About first screen I've noticed that Qi-pao is placed near the river (while Amiya and Zin are not) if everything else fails be sure to make some ocean tiles in Amiya and Zin working radius and make some rivers that drop in that inland sea EDIT: important! Amiya and Zin must be placed next to that rivers for the river solution to work

EDIT 2: Another river solution is placing a river right next to Amiya and Zin that drops straight into the original ocean (separating continents)

Good Luck

Hope this will help You.

 

[s.bernbaum]

The game decides if a body of water is a lake or an ocean based on how many water tiles it contains, whether "coastal" or "deep water" does not matter. If memory serves correctly (and I may be off by a small count), the magic number is ten. Ten tiles or more is an ocean while less is a lake. On your second map, all of the cities except Petersburg are on the large "lake" which the game counts as an ocean not a lake. Petersburg is only on a lake. Your first map does not show the full size of the body of water, so I cannot count probable tiles.

 

[AdamCrock]

The game decides if a body of water is a lake or an ocean based on how many water tiles it contains, whether "coastal" or "deep water" does not matter. If memory serves correctly (and I may be off by a small count), the magic number is ten. Ten tiles or more is an ocean while less is a lake. On your second map, all of the cities except Petersburg are on the large "lake" which the game counts as an ocean not a lake. Petersburg is only on a lake. Your first map does not show the full size of the body of water, so I cannot count probable tiles.

Surely there are >10 water tiles in the second screen so that number is not the issue

 

[s.bernbaum]

He's got the ships in the second screen. That is his example of where it worked not where it did not work.

 

[AdamCrock]

He's got the ships in the second screen. That is his example of where it worked not where it did not work.

You mean that battleship that was build in Talon (which works while Amiya and Zin are not working) Surely You have noticed the transport ships in the first screen

I am sorry I do not mean to offend You Peace and let's call it even. No further flames ok ?

 

[Sian]

>20 water tiles for naval units (beyond work boats which is buildable even if it was a lake with seafood)... >10 is for Lighthouse buildability

 

[AdamCrock]

And if absolutely everything will not work than watch this professional IT guide on game mechanics and worldbuilding ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8

It has never failed me before and is good to cheer up and don't worry

 

[lemony]

I think we've fixed it, if we removed 1 tile of land from Amiya and 1 from Talon and convert them to coast we can get both Amiya and Zin to work.
Also, which Ocean tile is workable the one in the first row or the second row?

As for the canal under Qi-Pao, it was pretty long, it went along the entire bottom length of that territory and all coastal cities in that land plot functioned correctly.
All ships in the water near Talon were either built there or gifted from my friend.

St petersburg was never intended to be a coastal unit city, It was mainly for pumping out modern armors.
Also i'm female .

Thank you guys so much for all the help with this!
The video was amusing

 

[Manco Capac]

The game decides if a body of water is a lake or an ocean based on how many water tiles it contains, whether "coastal" or "deep water" does not matter. If memory serves correctly (and I may be off by a small count), the magic number is ten. Ten tiles or more is an ocean while less is a lake. On your second map, all of the cities except Petersburg are on the large "lake" which the game counts as an ocean not a lake. Petersburg is only on a lake. Your first map does not show the full size of the body of water, so I cannot count probable tiles.

Here's the definition of a lake.
Before this definition, water plots are water plots. Nothing more.
While passing this definition hereunder, we qualify some regions of water under the name of lakes/fresh water.
Indeed, a lake is <=9 plot max contiguously. Otherwise, the waters are not longer a lake.

bool CvArea::isLake() const							
{
	return (isWater() && (getNumTiles() <= GC.getLAKE_MAX_AREA_SIZE()));
}

<Define>
		<DefineName>LAKE_MAX_AREA_SIZE</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>9</iDefineIntVal>

For building navy, one needs to found a city by non-lake waters; being by a lake at the same time being by sea means navy units can go through the city to reach the lake tiles. Forts also permit passages through land tiles into a lake.
Normally, sea foods are not spawned in lakes, but I've seen several bugs in Warlords Civ4 in Highlands mapscripts including lacustrine seafoods.

 

[Manco Capac]

>20 water tiles for naval units (beyond work boats which is buildable even if it was a lake with seafood)... >10 is for Lighthouse buildability

Interesting, where did you find that info?

 

[AdamCrock]

I think we've fixed it, if we removed 1 tile of land from Amiya and 1 from Talon and convert them to coast we can get both Amiya and Zin to work.
Also, which Ocean tile is workable the one in the first row or the second row?

I'm happy it worked out in the end And by a workable ocean tile I meant that You can put a city population to work on that tile via the city screen and it doesn't matter if it's the first or the second row. Come to think of it maybe You just didn't have any shallow water plots there so not having a coast was the issue ? I have noticed that weird not-coast shore outline in the second screen so I figured it might be it

As for the canal under Qi-Pao, it was pretty long, it went along the entire bottom length of that territory and all coastal cities in that land plot functioned correctly.

Hmm then maybe it is the water plot numbers like others have said (also You had a proper coast there everywhere ) but it's weird that I had similiar situation and putting a few ocean tiles in the city radius helped.

In my case that body of water was not classified a lake by the game mechanics, had no more than 15 tiles, no access to great ocean and had no ocean tiles either -just shallow water- and putting one ocean tile there within the city work area helped.

The video was amusing

Glad You liked it

 

[Sian]

Interesting, where did you find that info?

memory from what i have seen happen in homecooked map

 

[The_J]

It's directly mentioned in the Units\UnitInfos.xml.
All ships, besides workboats, have minAreaSize set to 20. Which means they need a water body of at least 20 tiles. Theoretically you could also apply that to land units, but I don't think there are instances where it would make sense.

...and for the reasoning: I guess this artificial restriction was introduced to speed up and enhance the AI. Because else you might end with big fleets in a body of water, where they'll never see an enemy. Would also cause a more in the needed computation power, and might be a waste regarding the used production.
But that's only a guess.

 

[Manco Capac]

It's directly mentioned in the Units\UnitInfos.xml.
All ships, besides workboats, have minAreaSize set to 20. Which means they need a water body of at least 20 tiles. Theoretically you could also apply that to land units, but I don't think there are instances where it would make sense.

...and for the reasoning: I guess this artificial restriction was introduced to speed up and enhance the AI. Because else you might end with big fleets in a body of water, where they'll never see an enemy. Would also cause a more in the needed computation power, and might be a waste regarding the used production.
But that's only a guess.

Nice! *click click click* In my bookmarks...

Yup, UNITCLASS_WORKBOAT has indeed no restriction: <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>.

Thanks for the hunch. Knowing the devs intent (or those who worked to enhance the game like Bhruic) is always interesting...to me at least.

 

[The_J]

Nice! *click click click* In my bookmarks...

Yup, UNITCLASS_WORKBOAT has indeed no restriction: <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>.

but then the differing workboat restriction can also cause confusion, because, like said, you need to have a resource in that body of water, but no defined area size. And you can have bigger water bodies without any resources and you might wonder why the heck you can't build any workboats there.

Thanks for the hunch. Knowing the devs intent (or those who worked to enhance the game like Bhruic) is always interesting...to me at least.

If that's the reason for the bookmark, then you should remove it, because I have no clue about their intent. It's just what I assume from a computer science point of view.