Any tier list for civics?

[sylvanllewelyn]

Tier lists are useless, stupid, and fun.

There's tier lists for civilizations, leaders, units, wonders, city improvements.

Any lists for civics?

 

[drewisfat]

I think the civic tier list is just too objective for there to be much discussion, but here goes.

S - Despotism, Barbarism, Tribalism, Decentralization, Paganism
A - Hereditary Rule, Vassalage, Slavery, Mercantilism, Organized Religion
B - Representation, Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Free Market, Theocracy
C - Police State, Nationhood, Caste System, State Property, Pacifism
D - Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation, Environmentalism, Free Religion

 

[drewisfat]

S - Slavery
A - Pacifism, HR, Caste
B - Bureau, Vassalage, Police State, State Property, Nationhood
C - Representation, Free Religion, Theocracy, Free Market, OR, Mercantilism, Decentralization
D - US, Paganism, Environmentalism, Despotism, Serfdom, FS
F - Barbarism, Emancipation, Tribalism

Real challenge with this is coming up with any kind of consistent metric. How often I use them and how powerful they are don't really match, especially given the opportunity cost of other civics in the tier. HR vs Rep is the biggest issue. I rarely bother to get Rep the traditional way, while I run HR for the bulk of most games. But obviously when I get mids I run Rep and not HR, so I'm not sure where that leaves us. Tried to get creative with the defaults, emphasizing that it's not always worth the anarchy/maintenance to swap. Really the bigger tier list is within the categories themselves. Legal and Labor being always important, Religion being important if you have religion and plan on running a normal great people game. Government matters if happiness matters. Economy civics by far the weakest. Ironically, the few games I have played with corporations I found Environmentalism to outperform Free Market

 

[Tecumseh1]

I think civics should be evaluated with respect to when they are available in the tech tree, not their overall strength. I also think civics are not that subjective compared to stuff like wonders (which depends more on leader traits and resources).

My perfectly objective and correct list relative to their era

S - Slavery (duh), State Property
A - Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy
B - Representation (S tier with Pyramids), Nationhood, Emancipation (its like 4-5 happiness in late game and better than Caste System usually)
C - Caste System, Police State (A tier with Pyramids), Pacifism (only really good for golden ages IMO), Universal Suffrage, Barbarism (usually better than Vassalage if Bureau not available), Paganism, Theocracy, Free Religion (useful late game but not at Lib)
D - Despotism, Vassalage, Free Speech (useful late game but not at Liberalism), Mercantilism (can't compete with Free Market or State Property)
F - Serfdom (not useful until state property. Serfdom should come earlier and compete with slavery to balance game more), Environmentalism (why does this exist?,

 

[Tecumseh1]

I think the civic tier list is just too objective for there to be much discussion, but here goes.

S - Despotism, Barbarism, Tribalism, Decentralization, Paganism
A - Hereditary Rule, Vassalage, Slavery, Mercantilism, Organized Religion
B - Representation, Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Free Market, Theocracy
C - Police State, Nationhood, Caste System, State Property, Pacifism
D - Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation, Environmentalism, Free Religion

This is such a nerdy civ4 joke

 

[Fippy]

Caste raised to S tier with SPI imo.

 

[civac]

S - Slavery, Hereditary Rule
A - Bureaucracy, Nationhood, Representation
B - Police State, Free Speech, Vassalage, Free Market, Mercantilism, State Property, Caste System, Organised Religion, Theocracy
C - Universal Suffrage, Pacifism, Free Religion
D - Emancipation, Environmentalism, Serfdom

 

[mycophobia]

wow State Property only a B?

 

[Tecumseh1]

Caste raised to S tier with SPI imo.

Spiritual is such a quality of life trait. It's my favorite and makes other civics stronger too. Even serfdom is pretty useful in most games with SPI

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Thank you everyone! I should do mine.

I assume no "spiritual" or "organised" trait, normal speed, below deity difficulty.

S - hereditary rule, slavery
A - bureaucracy, nationhood, organised religion, representation, state property
B - caste system, environmentalism, free market, free religion, pacifism, police state
C - emancipation, free speech, paganism, universal suffrage, theocracy, vassalage
D - barbarism, decentralisation, despotism, serfdom, tribalism
F - mercantilism

The only time I use mercantilism is "always war".

 

[pmarc]

Mercantilism is great paired with Representation or if the AI is blocking trade routes with Mercantilism themselves.

S (game-breaking) Slavery, State Property
A (impactful in almost every game) Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Caste System
B (situationally very strong) Representation, Nationhood, Free Speech, Pacifism
C (nice bonus but could live without) Police State, Vassalage, Mercantilism, Free Market, Environmentalism, Organized Religion, Theocracy, Free Religion
D (questionable design) Universal Suffrage, Emancipation, Serfdom

- State property is late but the effect on the economy when you flip that switch is just too large to not list it here IMO.
- Free speech is in B mostly because of how important it becomes in a Culture victory.
- Dropping Bureau for Vassalage even during war feels like a difficult tradeoff.
- I may undervalue the religion civics a bit, but I think the need to run a state religion, with possible negative diplo effects, is a significant drawback.

 

[Tecumseh1]

pmarc I strongly agree with a lot of your post. Definitely think OR and religion civics in general are overrated except free religion which I like quite a bit.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Free religion and mercantilism have one thing in common: you might as well only because others are.

Otherwise, I usually prefer something else.

One case where I definitely use free religion is after killing someone that was going for a cultural victory. That's 4+ happiness per city.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Free religion and mercantilism have one thing in common: you might as well only because others are.

Representation / Mercantilism is the killer combination IMO.

 

[civac]

wow State Property only a B?

It depends on what kind of game you play. If the game is slow enough the +1 food for workshops is less impactful because a lot of eligible tiles already have a town on it. Moreover, the output of a mature cottage economy with Mining Inc blows State Property setups out of the water.

 

[sampsa]

pmarc I strongly agree with a lot of your post. Definitely think OR and religion civics in general are overrated except free religion which I like quite a bit.

No love for pacifism? For me without doubt most impactful religious civic.

 

[Fippy]

Paci is almost S tier for me.
With SPI not just almost

Philo bulbs are very common (arguably the most impactful one besides in Isolation, where Astro obviously becomes the main goal).
A religion should be present by now, we can switch into caste + paci (very few cities should still need slavery at that point, all core ones will have granaries).

We also have SPI power showcased in a nutshell here..without Anarchy you can be in either caste & paci or slavery & OR / Theocracy.
Always getting the most out of your specialists or whips.

 

[Tecumseh1]

No love for pacifism? For me without doubt most impactful religious civic.

So half the time when I start a GA I forget to switch into religion at the same time as pacifism. But seriously it's good but I don't find myself running pacifism much outside of GAs. Are you running it earlier in the game with caste?

 

[Tecumseh1]

Paci is almost S tier for me.
With SPI not just almost

Philo bulbs are very common (arguably the most impactful one besides in Isolation, where Astro obviously becomes the main goal).
A religion should be present by now, we can switch into caste + paci (very few cities should still need slavery at that point, all core ones will have granaries).

We also have SPI power showcased in a nutshell here..without Anarchy you can be in either caste & paci or slavery & OR / Theocracy.
Always getting the most out of your specialists or whips.

Hmm seems you guys run caste+pacifism lot more than me in mid game. How many GP are you targeting before the industrial era? I find 2 for education, 1 for GA, and maybe 1-2 for SciMeth if I'm going communism. And PP is handy for rifling/cavalry push.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Hmm seems you guys run caste+pacifism lot more than me in mid game. How many GP are you targeting before the industrial era? I find 2 for education, 1 for GA, and maybe 1-2 for SciMeth if I'm going communism. And PP is handy for rifling/cavalry push.

If you want to attack with something that can use upgrades, e.g. Cuirs, Cavs, Rifles and even the relatively cheap Cannons, a few merchants are nice to have.