Any way to win on Diety without an early rush?

[JudgeDeath]

I don't think so, but if anyone knows a way, then pray tell.

Deity seems a lot harder than Immortal to me, based on what the AI starts with. If an early rush is needed then does that make only Civs with an early rush advantage viable?

Please - only those who've tried Deity answer this.


** I should have said, "Any way to win consistently on Diety at standard settings without an early rush?" just to remove the special circumstances wins. **

 

[LDiCesare]

What's your map?
You don't really need a rush if neighbours are far. Meeting all city states and trading all you've got to the ai's matters much.
What you will want is to expand, though, so if the map is crowded you are better off rushing.

 

[UknowsI]

I have finished a 6 player map on deity without killing a single unit. I had to turn off barbarians of course, but I did it on an island map with Babylon. I built 3 cities total, but it was almost a OCC as my capital did all the research and the other two cities were mainly to get coal and aluminium. Finished with a space race victory, but I had a very good starting position and loaded a couple of times during the game.

So to answer your question: Yes, it is possible. It is however harder on a non-island map.

 

[SureYouCan]

What map type? I've played and lost deity on pangea. From what I've seen it's less about what you do and more about the initial positioning you have. If its easily defensible then you can hold out long enough to get your economy/tech/military rolling enough to be a force. If it isn't then you're just going to have AIs popping cities down on top resources next to your capital that only had 5 more turns till border pop. And getting war decced.

I say that because rushing a deity AI isn't going to happen when 2 turns after your capital finishes its first scout/monument/warrior, whatever, you get war decced by egypt+elizabeth who churn out settlers faster than you churn out scouts. You either start in a position favorable enough to win from or you don't.

 

[The Great Apple]

I won a Diety/Pangea/Standard last week without declaring war once. It's not easy, but certainly possible. I try to stay away from ICS as well, although this is fairly hard to define!

 

[JudgeDeath]

OK I should have stated, Continents & Standard everything. But Pangea is probably similar. Certainly not Island maps or special circumstances (like Marathon, or limiting Barbs etc.).

SureYouCan, based on what I see in my starts you'd have to be damn lucky to get a defensible starting position, but also the AI seems to develop science very fast - lots of research pacts, which it can easily afford. Even with Babylon I was hard put to keep pace.

Great Apple, what was your strategy? Or was there some special circumstance (e.g. I once went through a game without having 1 DoW)?

 

[Martin Alvito]

You can, but clearing out your nearest neighbor and flipping his production to your side makes things a lot easier.

Pretty much any approach can win a fast Diplomatic victory without a lot of trouble. Achieving the other peaceful conditions before somebody throws a real army at you can be problematic.

You should slaughter the AI's teching abilities with the Babs. Build Libraries and Universities and fill them. You will pump out an absurd quantity of Great Scientists, which can be used to power through the expensive late game techs.

 

[patsfan454]

I'm sure it's possible, but why would you not rush?

 

[The Great Apple]

I'm sure it's possible, but why would you not rush?

Because it's not as fun sometimes. The game isn't all about winning easy.

 

[JudgeDeath]

You can, but clearing out your nearest neighbor and flipping his production to your side makes things a lot easier.

Sure. That's the only way to catch up the AI advantage directly.

Pretty much any approach can win a fast Diplomatic victory without a lot of trouble. Achieving the other peaceful conditions before somebody throws a real army at you can be problematic.

My last game the AI Civs took out most of the CS's early, including the only Maritime. Don't think you can rely on a Diplo victory on Deity, and if you go for it and it doesn't pan out...

You should slaughter the AI's teching abilities with the Babs. Build Libraries and Universities and fill them. You will pump out an absurd quantity of Great Scientists, which can be used to power through the expensive late game techs.

If you get to the late game. Unless you early rush, in my experience, the AI may hit you before you get there. OTOH it may not. It seems to depend on how close your are to AIs at startup.

Well that's my experience, which I admit is limited. I tried 8 starts with the Babs, and the AI beat me to Great Library with 6 of those, despite my best efforts. Once it built it the turn after I started. Seemed to be luck of the draw. I tended to do better if I'd met less Civs, but that is probably not cause & effect.

 

[aimlessgun]

Yes, it's very possible.

Option A is archipelago, which is almost like cheating.

Option B is diplomacy. I've been able to pull off a pacifist restriction enough times that I'm confident it isn't a fluke anymore. You need to get the AI's fighting each other, tag them as the villains, while you sit back with your horribly supbar score (and thus are not considered a 'threat').

Quick example: here's my current deity pacifist game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9847933&postcount=129

It isn't even being played to win, but rather with the esoteric "10 cities of size 20 by turn 200" objective (which I miss by a mile ) for the "Need Large city games" thread. But it's at the point in the game where I can't see myself losing (probably will be able to pull out a UN victory in the next 30 turns).

That game also demonstrates you can beat deity with a surprisingly solid vertical growth strategy instead of ICS. Notes on diplomacy that game: Cathy is like my attack dog, which serves the dual purpose of defending me and keeping her from attacking me. Ghenghis was my attack dog until Ramses got tired of his warmongering ways and took him out Also, if you're going to play peacefully you need to settler block like a madman. My army for most of the game was 2 warriors and 4 scouts running around blocking settlers (I kept 2 Russian settlers in block limbo up until turn 190 )

EDIT: if it matter the settings on that game are standard large continents.

 

[LDiCesare]

It really all depends on the map.
You need either an isolated start or several neighbours who will hopefully fight each other. City states nearby also help, as they are prime targets for the ai.
There's no way you can avoid a rush if your only land neighbour, who only knows you, declares war on you early.

 

[aimlessgun]

It really all depends on the map.
You need either an isolated start or several neighbours who will hopefully fight each other. City states nearby also help, as they are prime targets for the ai.
There's no way you can avoid a rush if your only land neighbour, who only knows you, declares war on you early.

Yeah that's definitely true. You're pretty much doomed to a fight if it's just you and 1 close neighbor.

 

[JudgeDeath]

Option A is archipelago, which is almost like cheating.

I already said to discount this, IMO it is cheating. At least while the AI is like at present.

Option B is diplomacy. I've been able to pull off a pacifist restriction enough times that I'm confident it isn't a fluke anymore. You need to get the AI's fighting each other, tag them as the villains, while you sit back with your horribly supbar score (and thus are not considered a 'threat').

Quick example: here's my current deity pacifist game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9847933&postcount=129

It isn't even being played to win, but rather with the esoteric "10 cities of size 20 by turn 200" objective (which I miss by a mile ) for the "Need Large city games" thread. But it's at the point in the game where I can't see myself losing (probably will be able to pull out a UN victory in the next 30 turns).

That game also demonstrates you can beat deity with a surprisingly solid vertical growth strategy instead of ICS. Notes on diplomacy that game: Cathy is like my attack dog, which serves the dual purpose of defending me and keeping her from attacking me. Ghenghis was my attack dog until Ramses got tired of his warmongering ways and took him out Also, if you're going to play peacefully you need to settler block like a madman. My army for most of the game was 2 warriors and 4 scouts running around blocking settlers (I kept 2 Russian settlers in block limbo up until turn 190 )

EDIT: if it matter the settings on that game are standard large continents.

Yes, it matters. When you set to large then you make the chances of being attacked early by the AI much, much smaller.

I did say to discount special settings, and IMO both large maps and Archipelago are special settings. They both take advantage of holes in the current AI (of course as does the early rush).

 

[JudgeDeath]

It really all depends on the map.
You need either an isolated start or several neighbours who will hopefully fight each other. City states nearby also help, as they are prime targets for the ai.
There's no way you can avoid a rush if your only land neighbour, who only knows you, declares war on you early.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Given that lots of people are complaining that it's easy on Deity (despite the fact that not 1% of players have beaten it according to Steam), is there any way to consistently beat it that does not exploit holes in the current AI?

Sure, get exactly the right setup and you can do it, but stick with standard settings and only the early rush works (which, OFC, exploits the poor combat AI). Or is anyone saying different?

Note that Sulla has been sticking to Immortal in his won games. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[aimlessgun]

Really, much, much smaller? So you have to incredibly lucky to start near 2 Ai's instead of 1 on a standard size map? Please.

 

[The Great Apple]

The trouble is it's hard sometimes to play without exploiting the holes in the game. You get to the stage where you feel like you're exploiting when you simply build lots of cities to fill the gaps in your land! Filling up bottlenecks, for example, is a good strategy in general, however the AI really struggles when it can only get one unit adjacent to your city.

 

[JudgeDeath]

Agreed Great A. That hole is only of use in a particular circumstance. I've seen Civs in that lucky position - hasn't happened to any of mine yet though. On Deity you have to be exploiting some hole in the AI to win. But it's even worse to be exploiting a hole that requires a particular setup to work.

aimless, just play ten games on standard and ten on large (ten to remove the luck factor) and tell me it makes no difference. The difference in distance is not relative to the increased map size, but rather logarithmic. I don't mind that you don't understand this relationship. I do mind that you flout your ignorance as wisdom.

 

[Slowpoke]

Still, problem with large maps is, yes they do gain you some space, but they result in monstrous runaway civs. Like practically modern by turn 160.

 

[aimlessgun]

aimless, just play ten games on standard and ten on large (ten to remove the luck factor) and tell me it makes no difference. The difference in distance is not relative to the increased map size, but rather logarithmic. I don't mind that you don't understand this relationship. I do mind that you flout your ignorance as wisdom.

First off, what are you talking about? Of course it makes some difference. But you're asserting that on a large map you will always get conditions that make diplomacy possible and that you will almost never get said conditions on a standard map.

So what exactly are these conditions that make successful diplomacy possible or not? We can't have an argument about it without defining those things first, making your comment about logarithmic distance differences a red herring.

EDIT: is this an argument that having more space that makes large maps easier? Frankly that's going to make it harder if the AI's are farther from each other.