Anyone remember there being a possibility or +2 Reformation beliefs?

[CaptainPatch]

At the moment, we get
1 pantheon belief
2 core beliefs
2 Apostolic beliefs

But I think it was Civ 4 or Civ 5 that had the possibility of getting two more beliefs. I think having 2 more beliefs would help to better define a Religion. I'm wondering if that +2 is still there, but only for certain Religions. (I _always_ play Egypt with a Custom Religion. So I don't know what else might be out there.)

 

[Arilian]

it was the Byzantine Extra Belief in civ 5

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

In Civ 5 one could unlock with religion based policy tree, piety, a reformation belief.

 

[CaptainPatch]

As with most things, it seems to me that "More is better than less". Given the FOUR parameters we have to define Religions, it seems like there really isn't all that much difference between most Religions. But then look at Real Life and see just how drastically different Christianity is from Islam, from Judaism, from Aztec human-sacrificing, from Buddhism, from Shintoism, from the Indian pantheon, from..... and on and on and on. I think that it would be cool if each Religion had the opportunity to pick just ONE more Reformation belief, bbbbbbuuuuutttttt the selections of beliefs were wildly different from each other. Like Baal baby-sacrificing. Or Aztec mass human sacrifice. Or mandatory self-flagellation for all clergy. Or.... just use your imagination to come up with @20 DISTINCT beliefs.

 

[Takfloyd]

We need ways to make religion irrelevant in the late game, not more powerful. It's ridiculous that you still have to worry about lightning battles between priests in the modern age or face loyalty losses and other negative effects.

Civ IV had a Free Religion civic in the late game that detached your empire from your founded religion and removed its bonuses, and instead gave an equal happiness bonus from each religion you had in each of your cities. Something like that needs to be in Civ VI. Having a state religion that you have to make sure your people follow is a thing best left in the medieval age.

 

[CaptainPatch]

We need ways to make religion irrelevant in the late game, not more powerful. It's ridiculous that you still have to worry about lightning battles between priests in the modern age or face loyalty losses and other negative effects.

Civ IV had a Free Religion civic in the late game that detached your empire from your founded religion and removed its bonuses, and instead gave an equal happiness bonus from each religion you had in each of your cities. Something like that needs to be in Civ VI. Having a state religion that you have to make sure your people follow is a thing best left in the medieval age.

There is something of a dichotomy Today. On the one hand, for much/most of the world has gone with and celebrates Freedom of Religion. But then on the other hand, there is Iran and much/most of the Islamic world which adheres to the firm belief that Allah wants Man to yield to an Islamic theocracy. Game-wise, we either leave it as it is where State and State Religion are inextricably intertwined. Or else we go with Freedom of Religion and put the kibosh on theocracies entirely.

It would be kind of interesting to have a situation that a city's Religion, dissatisfied with the State's management of the State Religion, so it stages a coup and replaces State government with a theocracy. (City in rebellion and goes Independent.) Then, if permitted to remain in control long enough, that city starts cranking out religious units and launches a crusade/jihad to spread the One True Faith to EVERY city. (Declares Religious War on EVERY civ in play.) When it captures a city, ONLY that Religion remains, represented by 100% of the surviving population. (All other heathens and heretics were executed according to God's Will.)

 

[Halcyan2]

There is something of a dichotomy Today. On the one hand, for much/most of the world has gone with and celebrates Freedom of Religion. But then on the other hand, there is Iran and much/most of the Islamic world which adheres to the firm belief that Allah wants Man to yield to an Islamic theocracy. Game-wise, we either leave it as it is where State and State Religion are inextricably intertwined. Or else we go with Freedom of Religion and put the kibosh on theocracies entirely.

Eh.

In the U.S., there are still plenty of conservatives and evangelicals who want a Christian theocracy.

Despite "Freedom of Religion," in the U.S. there is plenty of antisemitism, Islamophobia, many people who would never vote for an atheist, and plenty who believe those who aren't religious or don't "share the same values" are immoral and can't be trusted. Christian privilege abounds because the very governmental institutions subtly favor one religion (holidays, religious accommodations, church building/zoning, prayers before governmental meetings, displays and monuments on government property, chaplains in the armed forces, tax exemptions).

In Europe, you have Greece which heavily favors the Greek Orthodox Church and persecutes pagans (there are still some people who worship the old Greek gods). And the U.K. which heavily favors the Anglican Church and persecutes druids.

Speaking of Civ IV's Free Religion, in that game it was often advantageous to have multiple religions in the same city (gave you access to more buildings). However, it became increasingly hard to spread additional religions to the same city.

 

[CaptainPatch]

There is something of a difference between a Freedom of Religion environment where the various Followers seriously dislike each other, and a rigid theocracy where proselytizing for other than the State Religion can get a person in prison for a prolonged period of "hard labor". (If not outright murdered with the Authorities refusing to do more than "look into it".) Sure, there is a lot of badmouthing of competing religions in the USA, but usually any church/temple/mosque/synagogue-burnings have more to do with racism than with Religion. OTOH, go to Iran or any of several Islamic countries in Africa and see how long you remain at liberty walking around with your personal copy of The King James Holy Bible in your hand. In a theocracy, non-State Religions are treated like they were existing on borrowed time, likely to be crushed like bugs anytime the Grand Mucketymuck gets a bug up his posterior.

 

[Karmah]

Well without going into judgment, obviously from this posts you can derive that even now religion does have an effect on the state of mind of people everywhere in the world. Whether they even have a religion does not even seem relevant to the fact that their lives and opinions are in some part by religion, if not theirs, the other's will do.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Eh.

In the U.S., there are still plenty of conservatives and evangelicals who want a Christian theocracy.

Despite "Freedom of Religion," in the U.S. there is plenty of antisemitism, Islamophobia, many people who would never vote for an atheist, and plenty who believe those who aren't religious or don't "share the same values" are immoral and can't be trusted. Christian privilege abounds because the very governmental institutions subtly favor one religion (holidays, religious accommodations, church building/zoning, prayers before governmental meetings, displays and monuments on government property, chaplains in the armed forces, tax exemptions).

In Europe, you have Greece which heavily favors the Greek Orthodox Church and persecutes pagans (there are still some people who worship the old Greek gods). And the U.K. which heavily favors the Anglican Church and persecutes druids.

Speaking of Civ IV's Free Religion, in that game it was often advantageous to have multiple religions in the same city (gave you access to more buildings). However, it became increasingly hard to spread additional religions to the same city.

Druids get a lot of ridicule not persecution nowadays. A Satanist even got recognition of his right to perform Satanic rituals in the Royal Navy 14 years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm

 

[Kwami]

"Free Religion" could always be a government bonus or policy card, if we want to support both theocracies (e.g. Iran, Isreal) and more pluralist societies (e.g. most of Europe).

 

[Halcyan2]

Druids get a lot of ridicule not persecution nowadays. A Satanist even got recognition of his right to perform Satanic rituals in the Royal Navy 14 years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm

This article is from 7 years ago but:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildh...ntial-discrimination-of-pagans-in-the-uk.html

In the U.S., groups (like Satanists) occasionally get some rights but just as often those are withdrawn. Common cases are religious monuments and prayers before governmental meetings where once non-Christian groups start to ask for inclusion, then those in power change the rules.

Back to Civ VI. I guess the closest thing we have to religious tolerance is Gandhi's ability which encourages multiple religions present in his cities. Despite the name of "Cross-Cultural Dialogue" that essentially encourages you to dominate other empires just like with "World Church."

 

[WillowBrook]

There's plenty of room to overhaul the religion game. Reformation for an additional belief or two, some sort of schism mechanism, state religion and free religion with various benefits and constraints. I'd like to see more relevance into the modern era, but in historically sensible ways - e.g., you can have a state religion, but you'll get diplo negatives with those who have free religion. And free religion would give benefits from multiple religions in a city. Something like that.

Edit: Not to mention a use for great prophet points past founding a religion! (E.g., great theologians)