AoI Mechanic: Archers

[xienwolf]

Probably been breached, but I am dying to know:

In Age of Ice, any archer unit could "bombard" the neighbor tiles (colatteral Damage only). This made them incredibly powerful in stacks with your invasion force well before you could get Seige units to bombard city defenses, and even more powerful after them. There was VERY good reason to build a force of melee + Seige + Archer + defender to take on your rampage.

Also, the ability was priceless for defense, since when there is a Strength 8 unit stacked outside of your city just waiting for the Move points to take you out, and your best is a Strength 3 + Fortification Bonus, you could fire off a few volleys at no risk of losing your defender units, but the gain of making sure he wasn't full life when the attack went down.

Spells nearly do this, but then you need sorcery/summoning. And many of those abilities are limited in just how far you can reduce the life of the target. With Archery, you could flat out kill the target if you did enough volleys.


So, is this planned for FfH2 at some point?

 

[Sureshot]

from what i remember, the barage ability only let you damage up to half its health

 

[Vulcans]

get firebows if you want to do that, archers that can cast fireballs are nice!

 

[seZereth]

I think it would have to be nerfed a lot, it should be a small gimmick, not a real balancing factor.

 

[Kael]

From a design standpoint this is the province of spellcasters in FfH2. Since we didn't have any real area of effect spells in AoI and we needed a little distinctivness for the archers they got this ability in AoI. In FfH2 archers are good defensive units and support various strategies in that role, but in AoI turtleing isnt a very effective strategy so Archers needed a new niche to fill.

So Im not a fan of adding it to archers in FfH2. It would decrease the value of spellcasters and makes archers a very effective offensive and defensive unit (as SeZ mentioned if we were to do it we would almost need to nerf it to non-consequential levels).

All that being said it would be amazingly easy for anyone to add this ability to archers in FfH2. It would just be a new spell (or range of spells if you wanted tiered ability) that does damage (with a limit) to all enemy units within 1 range. Then either a python block to just apply it to unitcombat archer units or add a promotion to archer untis that grants the ability. The ai would even understand it.

 

[seZereth]

From a design standpoint this is the province of spellcasters in FfH2. Since we didn't have any real area of effect spells in AoI and we needed a little distinctivness for the archers they got this ability in AoI. In FfH2 archers are good defensive units and support various strategies in that role, but in AoI turtleing isnt a very effective strategy so Archers needed a new niche to fill.

So Im not a fan of adding it to archers in FfH2. It would decrease the value of spellcasters and makes archers a very effective offensive and defensive unit (as SeZ mentioned if we were to do it we would almost need to nerf it to non-consequential levels).

All that being said it would be amazingly easy for anyone to add this ability to archers in FfH2. It would just be a new spell (or range of spells if you wanted tiered ability) that does damage (with a limit) to all enemy units within 1 range. Then either a python block to just apply it to unitcombat archer units or add a promotion to archer untis that grants he ability. The ai would even understand it.

what about nerfing strength and making it a one tile only effect, plyer or AI can choose which tile to barrage.... warhammers support fire was a cool thing too

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I would say a one unit effect, the strongest single unit in range, and causes the archer to forfeit it's attack that turn.

 

[xienwolf]

I hadn't thought about how completely pointless defence was in AoI, so it makes sense that they needed something to beef them up and make it worth having Archers at all (well, Defense was pointless for the player, key for the AI ). And the fact that only the Children of Kylorin could use Magic did make it somewhat neccessary to bring something to the game along those lines.

Just would be nice to get a bit of "magic-esque" functionality before waiting to research all the way through to Elementalism/Divination and whatnot.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was thinking it would be nice for the Khazad, since they can't get mages to fireball their enemies.

 

[Kael]

I was thinking it would be nice for the Khazad, since they can't get mages to fireball their enemies.

That weakness is a part of their design, we wouldn't want to mitigate it by giving them a unit that can do it.

 

[Calavente]

but as khazad can neither have powerful archers it won't change anything...
nikis' idea is good : free damage against a powerful unit (and maybe archer forfeit attack for the turn and gain a reduced strengh until beginning of next turn : less arrows...etc.)

this will necro an old vanilla demand :
why not replace it with a ZoC effect a-la CiVIII, damaging a bit nearby passing ennemy units ??

 

[OzzyKP]

Meh, I say just leave it out. The game is too full as is with promotions and spells and bonuses. There is no need for another layer of complexity. As Kael said, fireballs accomplish this already. Just be patient till you get them.

 

[Calavente]

fireball ok, unless :
fire resistance... (think dragon... or s/o trying to go after the amurites)
magic resistance...
not allowed to have mages...

and fireball are opposed to nikis' option :
-if the ennemy is powerful enough and have first strike : no damage on most powerful unit.
-deals damage to other units...

the only unique mecanisme I see for archer is 1st strike... but it is quite weak:
-countered entirely by mounted units (no other unique ability of a line is countered totally by another unit category)
-not really powerful as the use of magic/withdrawal/weapon promo/bombardment (unique mecanismes of the magic/mounted/melee/siege unit categories) (1chance of first strike is almost useless, compared to a +1str for bronze weapon only drill 3-5 are interesting, but compared to combat 3-5 + iron/mithril promo....)
-not as fun as the magic/religion/alignement management for the disciple and magic mecanisms.
- in FFH, it can be bestowed on any other unit with treetop defense or/and danse of blades. so not really unique to the line.

I think it lacks something that makes the line really unique (maybe something as
-possibility to injure 1unit without attacking, (1random, the most powerful, the less powerful...)
-a 'increased defense boni' : as attack is ranged, forest or hill or wall are more efficient to protect the unit : with this : for archer, forest is +100%, hill +50% and citywall +50%) or respectively 75, 40 and 40...
-something that use the fact that the attack is ranged !!!

 

[eerr]

From a design standpoint this is the province of spellcasters in FfH2. Since we didn't have any real area of effect spells in AoI and we needed a little distinctivness for the archers they got this ability in AoI. In FfH2 archers are good defensive units and support various strategies in that role, but in AoI turtleing isnt a very effective strategy so Archers needed a new niche to fill.

So Im not a fan of adding it to archers in FfH2. It would decrease the value of spellcasters and makes archers a very effective offensive and defensive unit (as SeZ mentioned if we were to do it we would almost need to nerf it to non-consequential levels).

All that being said it would be amazingly easy for anyone to add this ability to archers in FfH2. It would just be a new spell (or range of spells if you wanted tiered ability) that does damage (with a limit) to all enemy units within 1 range. Then either a python block to just apply it to unitcombat archer units or add a promotion to archer untis that grants the ability. The ai would even understand it.

perhaps mages could have less spells, and some of the functions of those spells be taken over by the abilities of units?
mages would just have the most powerful fshizzle, if you know what i mean