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[NFP] Apocalypse Mode

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by OmegaDestroyer, May 21, 2020.

  1. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I mean, they warned you. Apocalypse mode isn't simply "disaster level 4 with the climate modifier and late game comets", it's "disaster level 12". I think that's intentional that the disasters are wild, with volcanoes going off all the time.

    My bigger problem is that I feel that they increased the disaster rate without apocalypse mode. I tend to like to play on 3 and it felt like things were going a lot more than they used to, pre-patch.
     
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  2. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer King

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    Agreed. I don't really see it as a bug. Disasters are supposed to hit fast and hard in the mode.
     
  3. Melliores

    Melliores Warlord

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    @oSiyeza
    Have you played with Disaster level 4 before the patch ? I used to play on Primordial with Disaster level 4 and young world. Let me tell you, I had volcanic eruptions every other turn. Volcanic soil was the second most common type of terrain after mountains.

    The number of eruptions depends also on the number of volcanoes you have on the map. A volcano that just went off has a cool-down timer which should be related to your Disaster settings. Also I think that after the patch they actually toned down Disaster level 4 compared to what was before. This was done probably to accommodate the new types of disaster.

    Apocalypse mode feels just about right currently. I think that because you are playing on King, the AI is not advancing fast enough to trigger climate change and thus switch the preferences to other types of disaster.
     
  4. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    There are two issues here that i think is important to separate. As they are interdependent to each other.
    - Ammount of volcanoes early game.
    - Game progression.

    It is important to note that only a disaster can happen per turn.

    So here is the trace of my game regarding volcanoes:
    • From Turn 1 (Phase 1) to Turn 72 (Phase 1), the frequency of eruptions was 1 eruption every 3.5 turns (28 eruptions / 100 turns).
    • From Turn 72 (Phase 1) to Turn 272 (Phase 1), the frequency of volcanoes had raised to 1 eruption to every 1.9 turns in average (52 eruptions / 100 turns).
    • From Turn 272 (Phase 1), to Turn 386 (Phase 4), the activity of the volcanoes started to decline, getting 1 eruption every 2.5 turns in this interval (40 eruptions / 100 turns).
    • From Turn 386 (Phase 4) to Turn 400 (Phase 7) (I think is the 2nd turn of this phase), only 3 new eruptions happened. This ammounts to 1 eruption every 4.6 turns (21 eruptions / 100 turns). A very noticeable decline.
    If in the first half of the game, a volcano erupted every 1.9 turns. This means that volcanoes were more frequent than all the other disasters combined even with one disaster every turn.

    I also argue that this is a problem early game cause is too much repetition. But more importantly, means that game progression regarding disasters does not work. As there is none, you cannot increase the disaster rate if you start with one disaster evey turn.

    Another problem is that the opposite of game progression happens. As frequency of volcanoes went down from 52/100 turns in the first half of the game till 21/100 turns in the second half. So actually they were less frequent as climate got worse and the game progressed. This is obviously an issue if you will find less and less disasters as the game goes on in the second half. When they are supposed to be more important.

    Lastly, in the last stage of the game (Phase 7). All disasters and global warming magically dissapear from the game.

    I think the reason of all this mess is that only a disaster can happen per turn. So maybe a disaster IS happening every turn through the whole game.

    This is a problem, cause this means that the game is fighting continuously with itself to know what type of disaster will show you. And that in order for global warming to have an effect, volcanoes have to go. And as many disasters of the global warming mechanic happen in the ocean, or in the snow, or in the dessert, or in rivers you have dams on. The game gets easier.

    Map size will obviously be an issue too. Since if this happens on standard size, and you cannot have more disasters on large maps... It will just not work

    Also means that in order for the comets to appear, all other disasters gave to go. This is less of a problem, because that is actually cool. But still global warming and volcanoes magically disappearing makes no sense.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  5. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer King

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    I thought that was a bummer. I think they should keep coming or, if that is not possible, have two or three comets appear on a turn. Really push the "you need to win NOW" feel to the mode.
     
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  6. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    The only way to balance this is to remove the 1 disaster per turn limitation in this mode. And to scale back the frequencies of the disasters in early phases.
     
  7. Melliores

    Melliores Warlord

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    @oSiyeza
    This is a screenshot of the Climate report from my last turn (280/500) on a Large map/Primordial/Emperor. Primordial adds extra flood tiles/volcanoes and what not. From those 280 only 4 turns did not have any disasters.
    Your first screenshot was from turn 272 and you had a total of 19 active volcanoes with 120 eruptions. I had 58 with 151 eruptions. Moreover, it seems that there is some random factor to each map regarding volcano activity - your highest activity was 43 at Climate stage I. I have Volcano activity 57% at Climate stage III.

    On the other hand you have a higher chance both for Storms and Flooding.

    I can attest that the volcano activity actually raised with Climate change. Probably it will be toned down at the later stages. Adding more than one disaster per turn when almost every turn is guaranteed to have one would be an overkill. If you dislike the volcanoes, may I suggest you try to play one game with an old world (less mountains and volcanoes) ? I am fairly certain the number of active volcanoes influences directly how many eruptions you get - I received 25% more than you in almost the same time frame.


    20200525222353_1.jpg
     
  8. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    Oh you misunderstood me a bit. I don’t dislike the volcanoes at all.

    Also, nice that you have some data.

    First, a side to side comparison is not totally possible since my game lasted much more than yours. Maybe the game speed, map size, map type… are important here. In my case I think I wasted around 100 turns only in repairs. But this is not the point. Also I did not check the entire progression of my games, only traced the saved games I had. Also im not sure if you use any mods. I have none, cause otherwise some may be interferring on the measurements.

    Also, yes there is for sure some randomization.

    But unless your disaster levels did not rise with global warming. (Floods, storms fires, droughts...). If you have disasters every turn except 4. Is logically impossible that your max number of volcanoes was in phase 3. You are missing something here. Let me explain.

    1 - Volcanoes are not tied to global warming. But almost other disasters are (as shown in your capture).
    2 - Global warming raises the chance of the disasters related to it (your screen capture show how much your chance of other disasters increased by global warming, in your case is not much but it is there).
    3 - You have traced a disaster per turn trough all your game (I take your word for this).

    If these facts are truth, it is impossible that you got more volcanoes on phase 3 than on phase 1. Something is wrong with your measurements somewhere. Cause if non-volcanoes increase in frequency (Global Warming mechanic), and the number of disasters in constant. Volcanoes by definition should be less frequent. Which is also what I have observed. Check your calculus and your info in other game phases to check the frequency rate of the volcanoes. You must have an error somewhere in your assesment.

    Anyway. Let me explain my position.

    I don’t dislike volcanoes. I dislike 1 volcano per turn. It is too much, and is obviously too much. I’m not saying is too difficult, it is too repetitive and makes them meaningless.

    I don’t dislike disaster intensity. But the game should raise is stakes as it progresses. One disaster per turn in the entire game means phase 6 is the same as phase 1. That should not be the case.

    Early game should start with less disasters than end game.

    Volcanoes are cool, but having more volcanoes than: Floods, Droughts, Tornadoes, Blizzards, Sand storms, Forest Fires, Meteor Showers and Solar Flares combined is objectively not a good balance choice.

    I say the 1 disaster per turn restriction should be removed, cause if you have one disaster per turn in a standard size map. When you play on larger maps, every civ will face a much easier game. As map size should not be a factor in how hard the game is, or how many disasters affect you. There is no choice but to remove that restriction if you want to balance map sizes.

    Then, what I want:
    • Game progression, according to the global warming mechanic. This means less disasters and less powerful in phase 1. More and more powerful on phase 6.
    • More balanced type of disasters and less repetition. There are like ten types of disasters in the game. Volcanos cannot be 90% of all of them.
    • Disasters not magically vanishing in phase 7.
    • Balanced experience in all map sizes.
    This is actually how the mechanic is supposed to work. If this not happens. The game is bugged. And now this does not happen.

    I’m saying the only solution to fix this is:
    • Remove the restriction of 1 disaster per turn. (But not to be affected by more disasters, this is needed so you can be affected by the same disasters in bigger maps and so phase 7 can keep the other disasters, and so you can have more volcanoes in a youger Earth without having to remove other disasters).
    • Reduce the number of volcanoes (Not because I dislike them, but because they are objectively unbalanced now). Also keep the number of volcanoes fairly constant (as they are supposed to be), or increase the chance of volcanoes, or have even bigger ones as the game progresses.
    • Let the rest of the disasters work as they should, increasing in frequency as the game progresses according to the global warming.
    In other words, I want the game working as it is supposed to. Somebody could like the unbalanced buggy behavior it has now. But there is no point arguing if it is working as intended. Cause it is not.


    PS:

    I think your data actually confirms my theory. First, if you ended your game in phase 3, is difficult to assess if your volcanoes actually were reduced overtime, since I actually observed this most clearly from phase 3 till phase 7.

    In any case, if you are right and you got a disaster every turn in your entire game, that means that phase 1 has the same number of disasters as phase 7, so there is no progression at all.

    Also a point to think about. If you have a rate of 55 volcanoes / 100 turns. And assuming every other disaster is equally probably (best case). That means you have not seen more than 6 disasters / 100 turns of other categories. This is obviously a problem that should be reported.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  9. ScooterDWiebels

    ScooterDWiebels Warlord

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    I've now played 3 games epic speed, huge shuffle map, emperor level. The first game as Teddy Roosevelt was a real easy diplo victory before I even got to stage 2 of climate. Tried as Mansa Musa there I just overwhelmed every aid competition.
     
  10. Onii-chan

    Onii-chan Prince

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    Just finished a game with apocalypse mode first time. I have to say that while not very realistic, I kinda like it. The early and mid-game parts are a bit whatever; soothsayers and the appease the gods event just seems like gimmicks and not anything you really need to do, and overall it wasn't really much different from just playing with lvl 4 disaster intensity, however once the climate change got maxed out and the planets starts getting zapped with cosmic rays and meteor are falling everywhere blowing up the world... it was pretty intense ngl. Definitely helped make the otherwise tedious slog of the Civ end game a bit more exciting. I was sitting there really trying to get those final techs unlocked to get my science victory finished but then all my campuses keeps getting wrecked and there's the constant looming threat of a comet falling on some key city. Suddenly it felt like there was an actual constant looming threat no matter how far ahead I might be. Quite an interesting change of pace

    On the other hand the crazy amount of requests for diplomatic aid means that achieving a diplomatic victory with this mode would probably be very easy if you go for it I reckon, but if that's something you want to avoid, well I guess just disable it as a victory condition in the game setup. I didn't have anyone getting above 14/20 by the time I won but if you actually focus on getting it, it should be a pretty early victory (even more so in games with more players in it for additional aid request events)
     
  11. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    It looks to me like volcanoes are scaled to the time frame being represented in the game, not number of turns. So the eras that last centuries have more eruptions than the ones that last only decades. I also suspect the Apocalypse mechanic deliberately scales back in later phases in anticipation of increased chances from climate change mechanics. In other words, Apocaplypse mode in a game where CO2 levels are rising across several civs (not just the player who is far outpacing the AI and perhaps even skipping coal to go straight to hydro/oil) has to still be playable. So to get industrial level disasters happening every turn in the ancient era you need an apocalypse mode modifier, but need to scale that back as the normal Climate Change modifier kicks in.

    In any case my pre-NFP games on primordial maps were also insane with volcanic eruptions
     
  12. racha

    racha Warlord

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    This is not a drill. This is the Apocalypse. Please exit the hospital in an orderly fashion.



    Not the first thing I'd expect when turning disasters up to 12.
     
  13. kzcosme

    kzcosme Chieftain

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    I had a fun game with Maya. Pachacuti was a pain from the start stealing my settling spots and declared 2 wars against me, with lots of disasters as a scenario.

    I had to prioritize aqueducts and dams to avoid heavy losses. At one moment I saw Cusco being hit hard by a volcano and decided to send a soothsayer to soften the city defenses; it worked as a charm, just sent some cavalry and the city was mine!

    At the end Teddy was the smartest one and won a DV with all that aid projects.
     
  14. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    You are right on primordial maps being also insane with volcanic eruptions.

    I am convinced that FXS needs to balance the amount of volcanoes compared to other disasters. And plainly reduce the phase one volcanoes. The game should feel like you are progressing towards an apocalypse, not have one disaster per turn through all the game.

    I genuinely think this is a big oversight, and not an intended feature. The game should be balanced for every map size, have balanced disaster frequencies, and have a sense of progression.

    This requires removing the 1 disaster per turn limit, specially for bigger maps. And scaling back the volcanoes.

    They can also think on adding an additional instensity level for disasters, like category 6 hurricanes, or hyper-mega-colossal volcanoes. The game tends to be too repetitive when playing a disaster movie every other turn. Or when you need spend half the game repairing some stuff.

    Also I would like to not take away other disasters when the comets happen. It would be cool that you have a chance to do the Carbon Recapture project to be ready for the final act. But if you dont suffer from it.

    Also Aid requests needs to be dramatically scaled down.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  15. Hans Castorp

    Hans Castorp Prince

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    I have seen catastrophic volcano eruptions and even a flood after the comets began falling, so I don't think they are totally gone, even if they are very infrequent relative to comet strikes.
     
  16. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    Is there a mod that will enable Apocalypse mode but disable soothsayers?

    I'd be willing to try the disasters that are unique to the mode and the supposedly catastrophic end game, but the soothsayer unit itself is just too "out-there" for me. I don't mind a little bit of creative license when it comes to stuff like the Fountain of Youth or Giant Death Robots, but calling down "natural" disasters? It's not my cup of tea.
     
  17. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    Just finished an Apocalypse game with Chandragupta last night (needed to win with him still, and felt the 'launch a nuke' achievement went along with the theme). Overall, the mode was okay, though I found it to be more annoying than anything. (Also found out some mod had broken opening the climate screen, so couldn't see the state of the world)

    Things did start off hard and fast, with a lot of volcano eruptions and a few floods. The first Appease the Gods event left me a little bewildered as to what to do, as it came super early and I hadn't even realized you bought Soothsayers with faith ... in the end it didn't matter as no one had the faith for it. Focused towards being able to make dams, so it was only eruptions to maintain for a while.

    Then things started to die down as i geared up to take over the world. In the second half of the game the volcanoes pretty much quieted down to very infrequent, and other than the odd hurricane, it was only huge blizzards ravaging my northern pair of cities that popped up.

    Using the Soothsayers offensively was mostly a letdown, once I figured out how it worked. Setting off volcanoes was fun, though situational. But I suppose I was too late with them, as there weren't any undammed rivers to flood, or much forest to set ablaze. I tried a blizzard and got a pathetic little snowstorm that lasted a turn. Mostly the Soothsayers just got killed by units as I tried to maneuver somewhere interesting. The Plague Bearer promotion seems interesting, but seems to come rather late; by then you're pummeling with artillery and bombers so makes it rather moot if the city heals.

    Diplomatic Victory basically fell in my lap, winning a number of aid competitions and votes, and the Statue of Liberty put me at 19/20 after then latest vote. So I just teched to Seasteads and won.

    All in all, I may try again sometime, but there wasn't too much to draw my interest.
     
  18. Hokie Fan

    Hokie Fan Chieftain

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    Since the New Frontier Pass, three of the four games I've played have been on apocalypse mode. I'm really enjoying it so far. My first was a fairly standard game as the Maya on Deity/Standard/Continents. I ended up winning a DV at around T210. I was aiming for a SV and, based on my playing it out after the DV victory, would have won at T237 had it not been for the easy aid competitions that came up all the time.

    My next two games were both China games where, based on the Reddit thread referenced earlier, my sole intent was to get the Great Bath. Both games were stupidly fun.

    The first China game was on Immortal/Standard/Pangea. I rolled an absolutely fantastic start for this strategy with ~14 floodplains in my capital. I built the Great Bath around T23 and won a relic culture victory with reliquaries/Mont St. Michael/St. Basil's. My only real hiccup was that I couldn't find a volcano to sacrifice units for the first Appease the Gods competition (it turned out there was one about twelve tiles from my capital that I inexplicably missed in scouting), which somewhat nerfed the soothsayers. Nevertheless, my capital was still awesome. My Great Bath tiles were generating about 60 fpt when I won, which I boosted to 100 FPT after the game was over. I also had Kilwa in the capital with two religious city states as allies to further boost the FPT by 30%. Here is a picture of just how beautiful the Great Bath is on apocalypse mode.

    20200525204751_1.jpg
    My next game was somehow even better. This time my strategy was to try a religious victory since I never go for those. The settings were Deity/Small/Pangea. When I rolled, I didn't have a sufficient number flood plains where I spawned so I decided to wander around a couple turns to see if I needed to re-roll. After moving two turns, I see a river that appeared to have a number of flood plains. I then proceed to move to the middle of the flood plains and low and behold the center of the flood plains was right next to Paititi. This was probably my luckiest game ever. With the gold and culture from Paititi, I was able to buy a builder, get to state workforce very quickly for the +15% production boost to wonders and finished the Great Bath by around T20 using two builder chargers. After this, it was easy mode. The river with 10 floodplains had already flooded twice by the time I built the Great Bath, which gave me the early faith to buy soothsayers. I was contemplating doing a OCC given how much faith I would be generating, but ultimately couldn't pass up settling on the other side of Paititi (I settled two other cities later just to pick up some wonders, but they didn't do much for my empire other than being fun to have). Because of my early culture from Paititi, I secured the ever elusive Apadana on Deity, a Stonehenge that I built mainly for the 2 envoys, a useless Great Lighthouse, the Colossus and the Oracle. After landing the Isidore Great Engineer (+215 to wonders), I built Kotoku-In for the +20% faith in the capital and for four Warrior Monks who happily jumped in a volcano. I then spammed apostles and won a T137 religious victory. Here is a screenshot a Turn 150, which is the turn that I converted every city in the world to my religion.

    20200526122051_1.jpg
    In short, play at least one game as China on apocalypse and build the Great Bath. It's a super fun strategy. If you build the Great Bath in a city with at least 8 flood plains, you can do anything you want in the game.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  19. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I just tried this in my current game.
    I had an area with 5 tiles that I could burn every so often.
    I stopped at 6f6p for all 5 tiles.
    Gamey? Yes
    Cheating? Yes
    Cheesy? Yes but fun and I will continue to do it!
     
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  20. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    It's the pantheon exploit by other name and means, and made legal :)
    Maybe they should make the regrowth time longer. Or make it's length a setting in the game setup menu.
     
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