Archipelago map and domination...

[GreedysMaximus]

I thought i might give a water map a try and do something entirely different and go for the warmongerer route this time. The question is how excatly do you approach a watery map as an aggressor? I have limited experience on waging war even on pangea and i guess the archipelago might need some more unorthodox strategies or ones which deviate from the ones that ppl usually use on land.

1)What should my tech path look like and which units to emphasize?

2)Policies?(I was thinking a combination of liberty+honor might do the trick, with some commerce later)?

3)Sea-land unit ratio?

4)Wonders(Great Lighthouse maybe, ND later i guess)?

5)How many core cities do you usually go for?

6)Who to actually attack first(nearest neigbours, the one with luxuries/resources or the weakest civs)?

7)How to keep up in tech, since nobody will DoF with an aggressor?

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

In Archipelago, sometimes you might even be able to dominate without a single land unit since every civ tends to start at coast in there. Aim for Frigates ASAP. 4-6 of these coupled with 2-3 privateers are a powerhouse especially if you beat the AI to it. Get the +1 range promotion for Frigates and sea-repair for the privateers.

You'd want Commerce soon as well, preferably the second tree you open after either Liberty or Tradition (also keep in mind that in Archipelago the landmass you're on is probably not big enough to support 4 or more cities).

You get to keep up in tech by the cities you conquer. If you shoot down the next science leader, you'll probably come out with more science and lengthen the tech gap between you and other civs.

 

[Tabarnak]

Iron. Iron. Iron.

 

[Veneke]

I thought i might give a water map a try and do something entirely different and go for the warmongerer route this time. The question is how excatly do you approach a watery map as an aggressor? I have limited experience on waging war even on pangea and i guess the archipelago might need some more unorthodox strategies or ones which deviate from the ones that ppl usually use on land.

1)What should my tech path look like and which units to emphasize?

2)Policies?(I was thinking a combination of liberty+honor might do the trick, with some commerce later)?

3)Sea-land unit ratio?

4)Wonders(Great Lighthouse maybe, ND later i guess)?

5)How many core cities do you usually go for?

6)Who to actually attack first(nearest neigbours, the one with luxuries/resources or the weakest civs)?

7)How to keep up in tech, since nobody will DoF with an aggressor?

1. Astronomy and Navigation. Make a quick beeline to the National College, run up through Optics, hard-research Astronomy whilst building Universities and use Oxford for Navigation. Frigates are like the artillery of the seas, in terms of their impact on warfare at sea. The fact that they're on the Education route is a huge bonus.

2. Definitely not Liberty unless you're playing on a Huge map. Anything smaller and you'll get more mileage out of Tradition. As Erneiz said, if you're on Archipelago, you want Commerce.

3. Depending on the type of Archipelago map (small continents, islands etc) it's quite possible to avoid land units altogether. If you do build land units though, don't waste your strategic resources on them - Iron, Oil and Aluminium can be better used on ships and planes than Swords or Tanks.

4. If you feel you can manage it the Great Lighthouse is really nice, but it typically goes early. I'd personally recommend avoiding Wonders unless you're way ahead and can pick and choose. Archipelago maps aren't known for their high production cities and you don't want to get caught wasting a huge number of turns only to miss it. One I would strongly suggest is the Statue of Liberty though - you're going to be running specialists and with your low production that makes this wonder very, very nice to have.

5. Two or three, depending on map etc. Especially if you're going on a conquer spree I'd focus on getting two or three very well situated cities and avoiding any more unless the map is giving you the holy grail of city sites.

6. This depends on difficulty level, on Emperor and above I'd strongly recommend you focus on who everybody hates... assuming this isn't you anyway. If it is you or no matter who you hit you're going to annoy everybody else then prioritize what you need (high production cities, strategic or luxury resources etc). If neither of the above narrow it down then take out the weakest provided they're not totally inaccessible or will put you at a strategic disadvantage.

7. This actually won't be as big a problem as you might expect because the big science techs are all on your tech path. Just remember to build the NC early and get Universities up and staffed with specialists asap.

 

[regeneration64]

I thought i might give a water map a try and do something entirely different and go for the warmongerer route this time. The question is how excatly do you approach a watery map as an aggressor? I have limited experience on waging war even on pangea and i guess the archipelago might need some more unorthodox strategies or ones which deviate from the ones that ppl usually use on land.

Good shout! This is exactly what I am doing atm too. What difficulty are you playing on? Standard map, standard # of civs. Playing as England on Emperor with only Domination victory on. How do you approach this kind of map? For me it's about settling your island (I managed two cities), exploring ASAP, settling colonies on good city sites, keeping ahead in tech (most important) and having a strong navy.

1)What should my tech path look like and which units to emphasize?

Aim for Sailing early - you need to get exploring much earlier than on, say, Continents. Don't worry too much about decent land units. The top half of the tech tree is key. Whilst exploring, go for Ed

For defence, emphasize a ranged land unit for defence in each city. Ranged ships are also perfect but I find that these get called to the front later.

For offence, you seldom need land units (unless the city is not on the coast or only has one water tile next to it) so concentrate on 4-6 frigates and 3-4 privateers per city. Prior to Navigation capturing a coastal city is doable but tough. Late game is where Archipelago maps come into their own with the range of units. Just remember the rock-paper-scissors mechanic and that you'll need 4-6 ranged naval units and 3-4 melee naval units per city.

2)Policies?(I was thinking a combination of liberty+honor might do the trick, with some commerce later)?

Liberty/Tradition first depending on preference. I would go Liberty as you will be going wide through domination. After finishing Liberty/Tradition I would recommend Commerce if it's available. Failing that, open up Honor.

3)Sea-land unit ratio?

A very rough ratio would be 4:1. One ranged unit per city and perhaps a naval unit or two sailing around your cities for defence. 4-6 ranged naval units and 3-4 melee naval units per city for offence. You will seldom need more than one land unit per city. The only exception would be if enemy cities (or your own) are in land, which is rare (especially for capitals).

4)Wonders(Great Lighthouse maybe, ND later i guess)?

Personally I aim for the Great Lighthouse but on Emperor+ there is no guarantee that you will get it. Commerce has similar benefits.

5)How many core cities do you usually go for?

I settle as many as possible on my starting island (I've never managed more than four cities and that would arguably be an ideal maximum to start with until NC). After NC I settle on strategic islands and resources. This can prove tough to defend and pisses off the AI so be warned!

6)Who to actually attack first(nearest neigbours, the one with luxuries/resources or the weakest civs)?

If you have a neighbour that is so near that they are in the way then go for them. I usually aim for that kind of neighbour first and then go for the top two civs (by that I mean the runaways who have all the wonders, 10 cities, are close to leading in tech and have spammed units). It may sound ridiculous to target the hardest civs first but once they have been conquered you have nothing to worry about. After all, you wouldn't want them to become an even bigger runaway whilst concentrating on less powerful civs...

7)How to keep up in tech, since nobody will DoF with an aggressor?

A few civs will (hopefully) remain friends. I've managed 3 out of 7. The other 4 are in a permanent war. I wouldn't rely too much on RAs though as the AI will often backstab you on Domination+Archipelago. How to keep up in tech then? Universities is the answer - build them in your core cities and staff them! Currently, I've got two fully staffed universities with 11 cities (my other cities are too small or are defending against the AI to staff/build universities) and I am leading in tech in the late medieval era. Settling a few GSs early can help no end.


One final note - you may find it hard to make allies with the AI and city states because you will be seen as an aggressor. Don't dispair. The most important thing is to keep ahead in tech otherwise you will struggle to tackle the larger civs. It is likely that your game will go on into the 2000s. Personally, I like it that way as late-game naval warfare is great fun! Just make sure you have conquered a few of the AIs capitals before then!

Good luck and keep us posted on how you do.

 

[GreedysMaximus]

Good shout! This is exactly what I am doing atm too. What difficulty are you playing on? Standard map, standard # of civs. Playing as England on Emperor with only Domination victory on.

Thats almost excatly the same what i did the 1st time i tried this approach(and what i'm also doing atm) - England, emperor, but with other VCs enabled and with a large map for some extra challenge - you're reading my thoughts .
Thx for the great replies, these have really helped me to make the 1st step towards my end goal. I've just started my game and i'm at turn 90, i will prolly post some screenies once i reach turn 100 and i will ask for guidance according to the situation at hand.

A few more questions though:

1)Religion. I'm currently over 150 faith and allied with a faith CS, what kind of religional modifiers should i aim for? I took God of Sea as the pantheon(i've got three sea resources combined with 2 cities).

2)Culture and policies. How big of a focus should i put to amphitheatres and such, in other words how many policies should i eventually complete and what is a decent acqusitional policy rate(x turns to next policy) when you're warmongering?

 

[Veneke]

Thats almost excatly the same what i did the 1st time i tried this approach(and what i'm also doing atm) - England, emperor, but with other VCs enabled and with a large map for some extra challenge - you're reading my thoughts .
Thx for the great replies, these have really helped me to make the 1st step towards my end goal. I've just started my game and i'm at turn 90, i will prolly post some screenies once i reach turn 100 and i will ask for guidance according to the situation at hand.

A few more questions though:

1)Religion. I'm currently over 150 faith and allied with a faith CS, what kind of religional modifiers should i aim for? I took God of Sea as the pantheon(i've got three sea resources combined with 2 cities).

2)Culture and policies. How big of a focus should i put to amphitheatres and such, in other words how many policies should i eventually complete and what is a decent acqusitional policy rate(x turns to next policy) when you're warmongering?

1. God of the Sea is great and a real favourite of mine. Throw in a Harbour and a Seaport and you can have some really powerful tiles. Tithe is typically considered the strongest gold producing religion pick and if you bother to spread it at all you'll rake in substantial gold throughout the game. On my second most recent game as England (Immortal/Marathon/Standard/Small Continents) I was taking in 50 gpt with Tithe about 1/2 way through the game. I'm not sure about the other picks but either Mosques or the other building (begins with P I believe) are good buys for your faith as well. After that I usually go for one of the food benefits so that Tithe kicks in quicker.

2. If you're warmongering and not puppeting then I'd suggest you can largely and safely ignore the Culture game. Culture buildings tend to cost gpt and on average you'd be better with another unit or a production building than a Culture one. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule with regards x turn to acquisition but, on Marathon, if I can keep it anywhere under 100-150 turns/policy throughout the game then I know I have a good shot at finishing 2 trees (typically Tradition and Commerce) with perhaps one or two picks in another tree about 2/3-3/4 of the way through the game depending on how late I choose to go on a rampage or whether I annex or puppet.

 

[The Pilgrim]

2. Definitely not Liberty unless you're playing on a Huge map. Anything smaller and you'll get more mileage out of Tradition. As Erneiz said, if you're on Archipelago, you want Commerce.

I have to disagree. On archipelago maps you won't be able to work as many good tiles as on large masses, there is no point in growing tall. Not to mention culture hit for annexing/settling strategics.

For second tree, I actually prefer the left side of Honor, because ships gain XP extremely slow. Then, obviously Commerce and if you have spare culture before the game is over, Order opening.

@OP, aim for Navigation. Once you hit Compass, start amassing galleases and when Navigation kicks in, upgrade to frigates. You need only one melee ship to capture cities, but having couple of privateers is very helpful, since they increase the volume of your fleet significantly. Land units are redundant. Maybe some archers for defense if you're in danger.
Iron is your best friend. Send settlers to grab additional 6 iron tiles and conquer cities that have even more iron. If you're lucky you can use Honor GG to culture bomb some iron as well.
If you build the barracks and the armory before you go full navy production mode, you can skip Honor and go straight for Commerce. Although I still like to have faster XP. Bring your frigates to range+logistics promotions asap and don't lose them. Win.

Religion-wise, obviously, extra production from sea resources if you have enough of them, and happiness per city beliefs.

Culture-wise, it's nice to have lots of culture, to finish Commerce and to open Order, but isn't the most important thing. Frigates with range+logistics are. After you upgrade them to battleships, it becomes even more ridiculous. But on king the game should end before that.

 

[Veneke]

I have to disagree. On archipelago maps you won't be able to work as many good tiles as on large masses, there is no point in growing tall. Not to mention culture hit for annexing/settling strategics.

For second tree, I actually prefer the left side of Honor, because ships gain XP extremely slow. Then, obviously Commerce and if you have spare culture before the game is over, Order opening.

...

I agree with the second half of your post, so apologies for not quoting it.

While you're right that there's less good tiles to work in comparison to a land-heavy map, that isn't a major concern. On large and smaller maps you're not going to found more than 4-5 cities, 6 at most. The rest you're going to conquer.

The free Settler and Worker are mediocre on Large and smaller land-poor maps as are the reduced production costs for these units and the tile improvement speed boost. Republic is a pretty decent pick, that's fair. We've already agreed that the culture game is secondary, so the need for the culture-reducing pick in Liberty is not as great as one might think. Meritocracy is fair but is unlikely to be stronger than Monarchy given the food-heavy start you will almost always have on an Archipelago map.

Meanwhile, Tradition's bonus food and gold give you more leeway to employ specialists, particularly Engineers, to help offset your low-production and the free Aquaducts builds on your food advantage. Oligarchy and Aristocracy are kinda weak though.

While you're right that ships gain XP rather slowly to my mind it's better to have faster ships with more sight than it is to reach Logistics and Range quicker. You're going to be going through enough combat to reach those promotions regardless whereas you're not ever going to be in a position to get the range and speed bonuses unless you get the GL or pick Commerce. In fact, if you really wanted Honour, I'd skip out on either Liberty or Tradition (or maybe simply avoid the weaker policies in those trees) rather than delay Commerce.

 

[meteo63]

I'm playing a game as the Ottomans on a small size islands map (on epic speed, to get more use out of the early game naval combat) on emperor and a Trireme rush proved to work surprisingly well. I went Tradition (though in hindsight, Honor would also have worked, but Tradition is what I normally go for if I'm not planning to immediately settle new cities) and rushed sailing to build a Trireme. I hooked up the sea luxuries nearby, sold them for gold, then bought up some more Triremes. I stole some barbarian galleys and triremes, and after getting the Great Lighthouse, I attacked England and quickly took one of their cities, and then London took a bit more work, but it was surprisingly easy. Probably works a lot better with the Prize Ships UA of the Ottomans, but it could work with other civs too, maybe.

 

[GreedysMaximus]

Here's the current situation on our home island at 375BC, we are right in the middle of map, having discovered all civs except one(currently i have about 4 triremes actively searching for the last one). As you can see York doesn't have a lot of hammer tiles around, so we will have problems with production there(i bought the hill on the right side after taking this screenie, so that the CS wouldn't snatch it b4 me). Any tips on how can i grab the incense on the left side of London? A lil thing i noticed in the beginning of this game was the fact that the city borders wouldn't expand to the sea resources even if they had the chance, instead i got mediocre food tiles, how does the city border expansion mechanic actually work, do i need sailing for the borders to start expanding towards sea luxuries?

Spoiler :

Iron isn't abundant on the home island, so i need to grab these tiles on the north side of map( i rush bought two settlers who are already on their way north). Both tiles have 6 iron in the 1st screenie, the bottom one has 2. Should i settle on the salt or iron, what do you think? I think on the top iron, since eventually i can buy/expand my way towards the salt.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I finished the NC at turn 83 i think, could've done it faster, but i wanted masonry and archery so it took longer than it prolly should've. Currently teching towards education, i'm thinking to research workshops b4 going into the top part of tech tree, i really like the extra production early on, but is it worth it?

Spoiler :

Religon and policies(sorry liberty maybe next time , i got an early culture ruin so i had to decide really fast what to go for, so i took traditon since i didn't have enough knowledge of the surroundings yet. Currently thinking of going into commerce right away, but we'll see.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Last but not least here's the luxury tab. I think i'll trade the recently hooked up spices and iron away since i won't be occupying any cities and military units aren't gonna be around anytime soon either. The gems are from Geneva.

Spoiler :

Diplomacy wise it's too early to asess the situation in the periphery(atm it's neutral to friendly), but the neighbourwise i can already i feel friction between Isabella and me(she's guarded and covets my lands and is also last in score, so Spain should be an obvious first target). I made a DoF with Sully because everybody needs friends . Pacal doesn't like that, but we'll teach him to respect his neighbours once we are ready .

 

[Veneke]

I'm not sure how the city expansion mechanic works but I have noticed that it does not particularly like going after sea tiles. I think it prioritizes land then sea and Wonders, strategic, luxuries, food and then production but I don't know.

The incense near London is going to be a bit of a race between you and Hanoi. You'll only get it once all the other tiles within your 3 radius reach from London are taken. Also, make sure you TP those jungle tiles - later in the game they become very good with the +2 science.

In terms of settlement, if it were me, I'd go right between the Salt, Stone and Fish and buy the iron tiles or just leave culture do the work if you can afford to wait.

The southern site is trickier, in my view, but 1SE of the Wheat would be what I'd lean towards. That way you'll get the entire island plus the strait to the north and give you a quick cut through the island via the city.

I'm not sure about Workshops. I tend to leave them after Universities as science is usually the most important aspect of the whole game, but Workshops are pretty useful. Given that you're playing the English and the quicker you get Ships of the Line the quicker you can dominate the game my advice would be to go for Education first and then backtrack for Workshops.

Luxury, Policies and Religion all look good. Let me know what you think of the Asceticism, I always thought that was relatively weak but extra happy is extra happy so yeah... One bit of advice would be to not spread your religion to nearby City States until you get the quest to do so. I've yet to not be offered a religion quest when I've founded a religion and the bonus influence is really nice.

Sounds like you've identified your first target! You have to be careful with the Ottomans though on a naval map - their navy basically gets bigger the more they go to war. Looks like a decent start though!

 

[Tabarnak]

Grab 12 iron and make 12 frigates as fast as you can. Make 3 armies and own the entire world. Liberty works well for this strategy because you can use the free gs from Liberty finisher to get Navigation faster. You can also use Oxford.

 

[Veneke]

Grab 12 iron and make 12 frigates as fast as you can. Make 3 armies and own the entire world. Liberty works well for this strategy because you can use the free gs from Liberty finisher to get Navigation faster. You can also use Oxford.

Does the GS from Liberty still fully (or as good as) bulb Navigation? It used to, pre-G&K, and for that reason it was often worthwhile going down the Liberty tree fully. I haven't done it since but have been woefully underwhelmed by the turns a GS being used will shave off a Tech.

Completely agree with 12 Frigates and smashing the rest of the world though.

 

[Tabarnak]

Does the GS from Liberty still fully (or as good as) bulb Navigation? It used to, pre-G&K, and for that reason it was often worthwhile going down the Liberty tree fully. I haven't done it since but have been woefully underwhelmed by the turns a GS being used will shave off a Tech.

I didn't try it yet too but i think about a fast university at least 8 turns before bubling can be enough of a good use. At worst you will probably need 1 or 2 more turns of self research.

The best should be Oxford for Navigation and the gs for Astronomy.

 

[Veneke]

The best should be Oxford for Navigation and the gs for Astronomy.

Yeah, that's probably the quickest way to do it alright.

 

[GreedysMaximus]

Let me know what you think of the Asceticism, I always thought that was relatively weak but extra happy is extra happy so yeah...

I think it was actually a pretty tough decision(i cant remember the other choices, but it wasn't an easy pick by any means). Eventually the factor just made me go for it since i had already taken tithe and didn't have a happiness modifier yet. TBH the tithe pick wasn't the easiest of decisions either.

 

[Veneke]

I think it was actually a pretty tough decision(i cant remember the other choices, but it wasn't an easy pick by any means). Eventually the factor just made me go for it since i had already taken tithe and didn't have a happiness modifier yet. TBH the tithe pick wasn't the easiest of decisions either.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Partly because I initially thougth Tithe would be weaker to Church Property (based on how the need to convert more people to bring in more gold worked against Tithe) and it was only discussion here (or maybe in the G&K subsection) that I realized just how potent it could be.

I can't remember the other possible contenders for the Tithe slot either but after my last game I'd have to see a pretty good strategy to be convinced of a different pick now.

 

[GreedysMaximus]

Just a small update, i've played 30 pretty peaceful and uneventful turns and finally got education, currently teching towards workshop. The question is should i sign RA's? I have around 1500 gold and can possibly sign around three of them, but maybe i should rush the universities with this cash(already bought one in York).

Isabella has stopped her evil ways and she is friendly atm, she is also friendly with Carthage which is doing pretty well this game and is one of my main trade partners, so i think i might leave Spain alone for now. Ramses on the other hand is wonder spamming and has full tradition and half of piety unlocked - he's pretty far away though.

My main iron city is on the same island with The Celts and their not liking that, she is already coveting my lands. Walls should be finished soon, so that will help a little, but just in case, i may need to reserv some gold for emergency rushes(currently there's 1CB keeping an eye on things there).

Here's a screenie of our home island cities and the known world:

Spoiler :

 

[Scarpa]

I'm nearing the end of a Carthage/Small Continents/Emperor game and while I originally intended to go Science Victory the 1 beaker RA bug hit me so I'm switching to domination.

Anyway, just wanted to say build a lot of privateers, late game when you upgrade them to Destroyers they are freaking amazing, and if you have supply on them by then even better.

My Atomic Era strike force consists of 5 range upgraded battleships, 2 carriers and about 8 bomber/fighters to rotate around between them and most importantly (IMO, for this stage of game) 6 sight upgraded submarines. Those subs really enforce your naval domination. The destroyers wander in packs of 2 or 3 and harry isolated ships.

So far it's been:
- Target a capital city
- Use subs/battleships to pick off ships from safe range. When in red if I have a prize-ship Destroyer nearby I'll convert the ship for cannon fodder.
- Use bombers/battleships to wear down city.
- Take city with destroyer.

Having a blast enforcing complete naval superiority!