[R&F] Are battering ram's not supposed to work with Cavalry?

[Leathaface]

I was watching The Game Mechanic play Civ VI today and he was saying that battering rams being able to work with Cavalry was "broken", that them working together was not intended.

Is this true?

 

[Archon_Wing]

Besides being silly, it does break the game by making cav too good at everything. If rams only worked with melee units, that would be more balanced.

They also work with ships too.....

 

[acluewithout]

I don’t have a problem with Heavy Cav using Rams. Knights bashing down fortifications with a Ram seems perfectly sensible - I just assume they get off their horses. The real issue is just that Knights are a bit too easy to rush for their power level, and their counter (Pikes) still have some problems.

Light Cav using Rams seems stupid. Light Cav are meant to be raiding and harassing units, so ai can’t see them using Rams. It’s also unbalanced for them to use Rams given Horsemen pack so much punch and come so early in the tech tree. I don’t think light Cav should be able to use Rams, and they should also get a -17 to attacking cities.

Overall, Rams are too powerful, particularly because the AI doesn’t know how to use them. It’s also silly have Rams the way we do - you don’t build Rams in one city and bring them to your siege. You build them at the siege from the local forest.

 

[Mahi]

Rams are just a broken mechanic in general IMHO. They are too overpowered. But if they have to be in the game it should only work with melee foot units if you ask me. I never use rams anyways as they break some immersion for me. No need for that unit type to be in the game.

 

[FearSunn]

I am ok with Battering_Rams working with Cavalry. Battering rams brake through the gates and cavalry follows. This is realistic. Siege Towers what bugs me. How Cavalry could get use of Siege Towers is beyond my imagination. Mod pending.

 

[drubell]

Yes, and this could have been fact checked in 5 minutes

 

[AmazonQueen]

I am ok with Battering_Rams working with Cavalry. Battering rams brake through the gates and cavalry follows. This is realistic. Siege Towers what bugs me. How Cavalry could get use of Siege Towers is beyond my imagination. Mod pending.

And the cavalry get massacred because they can't manoeuvere inside a city.
I'm fine with cavalry using battering rams (including horsemen who can get off their horses as easily as knights) but they should have a big minus against cities.

 

[FearSunn]

We are talking about the WALLS here, not about Cavalry vs Cities.

 

[AmazonQueen]

We are talking about the WALLS here, not about Cavalry vs Cities.

"Battering rams brake through the gates and cavalry follows"

So where were they following if not into the city?

 

[Disgustipated]

particularly because the AI doesn’t know how to use them

Actually had the AI use one properly the other day, but it may have been by chance. He moved one next to my city by sea (escorted by a spearman), and units that had disembarked from the sea took down my walls. I was most surprised and displeased.

 

[Mahi]

We are talking about the WALLS here, not about Cavalry vs Cities.

Right. So how do the cavalry attack the walls again? They dismount their horses and uses the battering ram, or what? - or perhaps they attack a defensive wall in full scaled armor on foot? How the hell would any cavalry unit ever do anything useful against a wall defense? You use cavalry to trample over foot soldiers on an open field. Not much more than that. In any case cavalry units should get a massive penalty when attacking defensive buildings.

 

[acluewithout]

And the cavalry get massacred because they can't manoeuvere inside a city.
I'm fine with cavalry using battering rams (including horsemen who can get off their horses as easily as knights) but they should have a big minus against cities.

We are talking about the WALLS here, not about Cavalry vs Cities.

"Battering rams brake through the gates and cavalry follows"

So where were they following if not into the city?

Right. So how do the cavalry attack the walls again? They dismount their horses and uses the battering ram, or what? - or perhaps they attack a defensive wall in full scaled armor on foot? How the hell would any cavalry unit ever do anything useful against a wall defense? You use cavalry to trample over foot soldiers on an open field. Not much more than that. In any case cavalry units should get a massive penalty when attacking defensive buildings.

To be honest, I don’t have a really cogent argument for why heavy Cav (really, just Knights) should be able to use Rams, but not Light Cav. I guess light Cav could get off their horses just as easily as Knights. But I guess in my head Knights are basically elite soldiers on horses, so they’d still be pretty fearsome once they dismount and would be totally proficient with Rams and stuff. Horsies are more hit and run guys. I just don’t see them being as willing or capable at seiging cities. But I’m sure all my thoughts here are totally uninformed and ahistorical.

My concern is also game balance. I think Knights should be scary, given you do have to work to get them (well, in principle you do, although in reality they are easy to rush if you know what you’re doing). Light Cav are too easy to get, and I dislike how good they are at taking cities anyway - it really overshadows their ability to pillage and harass.

On Light Cav getting penalties against attacking cities, I really don’t want to pull this thread off topic. But I do think the two are related. They key question is really “should light cav (or any cav) be effective at taking cities.

 

[FearSunn]

Heavy Cavalry is not just Knights. Tanks, ModernArmour all considered Heavy Cavalry.

 

[acluewithout]

Heavy Cavalry is not just Knights. Tanks, ModernArmour all considered Heavy Cavalry.

Thanks. Yes, I realise that. I was alluding to that point when I said “really, just Knights” above.

Being a little more specific: I think only ancient to medieval era units should be able to use Rams, and of those only melee, anti-cav and heavy cav. I guess in principle a musket man could use a ram, or tank drivers and gunners etc. could get out of their tanks, but it all just seems a bit silly to me.

Honestly, I think FXS should get rid of Rams and Seige towers and replace this with some other Mechanic. Rams etc don’t really work and it’s all a bit silly. Even more silly actually when they all upgrade into medics, which is a totally different thing. It would be better having a Military Engineer that comes earlier in the tree and replaces a lot of these functions. But that’s a whole other discussion...

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Personally I'm all for limiting rams to melee. Of course they can get off their horses but it makes for better game balance. I think knights should be nerfed from 48 to 45, and I don't think they should benefit from terrain/ fortification.

 

[FearSunn]

Also dont forget Rams and Siege Towers becomes obsolete in later eras. Cities just get 200 "walls" immune to siege units.

 

[Scaramanga]

Rams work with any unit, but cavalry will surely be slowed down unless they have escort mobility. Using Artillery against Steel-enabled defenses just sounds more practical anyway.

 

[FearSunn]

Related question: how much AI uses siege units (ramps and towers)? My experience close to none. A lot of catapults and bombards, but not siege class.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I am ok with Battering_Rams working with Cavalry. Battering rams brake through the gates and cavalry follows. This is realistic. Siege Towers what bugs me. How Cavalry could get use of Siege Towers is beyond my imagination. Mod pending.

First you have to teach the horses to climb ladders. It helps if you start when they're young. Have the mare climb to the top of the ladder and her foal will instinctively climb the ladder to nurse. Later, once they've been broken in and taught to accept a rider, have them carry small children to the top of a ladder and back, then gradually work up to full grown men in armour.

Related question: how much AI uses siege units (ramps and towers)? My experience close to none. A lot of catapults and bombards, but not siege class.

This is my experience, as well. Close to none, but not zero. Maybe as a rough ratio 19:1 catapults:rams ? Similar for bombards:siege towers.

 

[FearSunn]

So basically altering how ramps/towers work will not hamper AI in any way.