[R&F] Are battering ram's not supposed to work with Cavalry?

[Trav'ling Canuck]

So basically altering how ramps/towers works will not hamper AI in any way.

I think it's safe to assume it'll be a meaningful nerf to human players only.

 

[Scaramanga]

Right. So how do the cavalry attack the walls again? They dismount their horses and uses the battering ram, or what? - or perhaps they attack a defensive wall in full scaled armor on foot? How the hell would any cavalry unit ever do anything useful against a wall defense? You use cavalry to trample over foot soldiers on an open field. Not much more than that. In any case cavalry units should get a massive penalty when attacking defensive buildings.

Everything gets a massive penalty against walls, except bombard units. I don't think it's far-fetched to have a horseman dismount to man a battering ram anymore than a swordsman who arrived on foot (and is slightly stronger anyway).

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Everything gets a massive penalty against walls, except bombard units. I don't think it's far-fetched to have a horseman dismount to man a battering ram anymore than a swordsman who arrived on foot (and is slightly stronger anyway).

Typically a mounted unit has far fewer people than a foot unit of equivalent military power.

Sure, your Knights/Horsemen/etc. could dismount, but then they'd be a quarter of the size of a Swordsmen/Warrior unit of the same era, and therefore should do about one-quarter of the damage that the foot unit could do.

My biggest concern about limiting Rams, etc. to melee units is that melee units are already OP'd versus anti-cav units and don't need another boost.

 

[acluewithout]

Personally I'm all for limiting rams to melee. Of course they can get off their horses but it makes for better game balance. I think knights should be nerfed from 48 to 45, and I don't think they should benefit from terrain/ fortification.

I don’t think Knights are overpowered and so require a nerf. They’re powerful, yes, but not overpowered.

Knights need to be powerful. In principle, the game actually makes you work hard to get them - you need iron, you need to research a tech path that is focused on military not infrastructure, you need two builders to make six farms for the eureka (plus researching the rest of Feudalism), and then you need to build them. For all that, you should get a powerful unit, one that can smash through enemies and fortifications.

Where it goes wrong is this:

- For skilled players, it’s actually fairly easy to rush Knights. Teching culture is it hard, you can steal the farms you need, and chariots / upgrade / mercenaries is just so powerful.

- You ideally should actually have that many Knights. Just a few to help bolster your existing melee (or whatever) army. Knights should be like Varu - you have a few, they’re powerful, it there not your whole army. But because of chariots / upgrade / mercenaries, and the fact maintenance ain’t a thing, you can easily get swarms of Knights . (What is the collective term for Knights? A table of Knights? A coconut of Knights?).

- The counter for Knights - anti cav - are too hard to reach, too expensive, and still a little too weak.

Knights don’t need to be less powerful. They just need to be harder to get, harder to build in large numbers, and have better counters.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I don’t think Knights are overpowered and so require a nerf. They’re powerful, yes, but not overpowered.

Knights need to be powerful. In principle, the game actually makes you work hard to get them - you need iron, you need to research a tech path that is focused on military not infrastructure, you need two builders to make six farms for the eureka (plus researching the rest of Feudalism), and then you need to build them. For all that, you should get a powerful unit, one that can smash through enemies and fortifications.

Where it goes wrong is this:

- For skilled players, it’s actually fairly easy to rush Knights. Teching culture is it hard, you can steal the farms you need, and chariots / upgrade / mercenaries is just so powerful.

- You ideally should actually have that many Knights. Just a few to help bolster your existing melee (or whatever) army. Knights should be like Varu - you have a few, they’re powerful, it there not your whole army. But because of chariots / upgrade / mercenaries, and the fact maintenance ain’t a thing, you can easily get swarms of Knights . (What is the collective term for Knights? A table of Knights? A coconut of Knights?).

- The counter for Knights - anti cav - are too hard to reach, too expensive, and still a little too weak.

Knights don’t need to be less powerful. They just need to be harder to get, harder to build in large numbers, and have better counters.

So it's the upgrading that's the problem. Seems easy enough to slap down (or avoid if you want a bigger challenge pre-nerfing).

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I was watching The Game Mechanic play Civ VI today and he was saying that battering rams being able to work with Cavalry was "broken", that them working together was not intended.

Is this true?

Not broken, it works very well ! 1000BC, 4 cities in 8 turns with no stress.

PS, I know he means it works too well. I wonder if I've just agreed with him? Personally I think there should be an early game blitzkrieg available. If you rush certain techs and luck into other Eureka/Inspirations, and can get it to come together soon enough, you should be rewarded. If I multiplayered, it would give me something to worry about, help me to keep my mind on the game.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Not broken, it works very well ! 1000BC, 4 cities in 8 turns with no stress.

PS, I know he means it works too well. I wonder if I've just agreed with him? Personally I think there should be an early game blitzkrieg available. If you rush certain techs and luck into other Eureka/Inspirations, and can get it to come together soon enough, you should be rewarded. If I multiplayered, it would give me something to worry about, help me to keep my mind on the game.

It seems (like the state of anti-cav and catapults) to be a weakness of the game on a tactical level. Theres no need for a balanced army, just spam knights or some of the UUs and give them a battering ram. It doesn't stop me enjoying the game but they could've eliminated half the units with virtually no effect on the game.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

It seems (like the state of anti-cav and catapults) to be a weakness of the game on a tactical level. Theres no need for a balanced army, just spam knights or some of the UUs and give them a battering ram. It doesn't stop me enjoying the game but they could've eliminated half the units with virtually no effect on the game.

I agree that this is generally true for human players. I think I may have built an Impi for era score at some point, and I have constructed the errant catapult.

I think the unit classes are more useful for the AI, whose units (no matter the class) operate at a serious tactical deficit relative to a human players cav units due to flanking, lack of ZOC’s, and the ability to concentrate fire on singular AI units and eliminate them. So, as the AI units are generally useless anyway, anti-cav & catapults are perhaps less so as they can take a few more hits and inflict a bit more damage to attackers before being eliminated.

 

[kaspergm]

Personally I'm all for limiting rams to melee. Of course they can get off their horses but it makes for better game balance. I think knights should be nerfed from 48 to 45, and I don't think they should benefit from terrain/ fortification.

Another possibility to balance rams would be to only have them apply for the unit sharing the hex with the ram. The fact that I can have one ram and attack the walls full force from all sides is both imbalanced AND unrealistic.

 

[Karmah]

Yes, and this could have been fact checked in 5 minutes

But then there would not be a discussion around the facts. Rather than providing a simple y/n answer , to get deeper into the context , That's basically what a forum is about ,don't you think ?

 

[FearSunn]

Unfortunately (and surprisingly) I've hit the wall with all these rams. It seems unmoddable.
Game effect behind this EFFECT_ADJUST_UNIT_BYPASS_WALLS is kind of like "all units around me get this ability". It is not attached to attacking unit, it is attached to Siege Tower. And there is no way to filter out unit classes getting this effect. All is hardcoded. Only one argument is exposed "Eneble"(Disable).
So you could re-attach this effect to another unit (say Engineer, or Scout), but you cant really alter how it works. - all units around unit with effect will get this ability.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Game effect behind this EFFECT_ADJUST_UNIT_BYPASS_WALLS is kind of like "all units around me get this ability". It is not attached to attacking unit, it is attached to Siege Tower. And there is no way to filter out unit classes getting this effect. All is hardcoded. Only one argument is exposed "Eneble"(Disable).
So you could re-attach this effect to another unit (say Engineer, or Scout), but you cant really alter how it works. - all units around unit with effect will get this ability.

EFFECT_ADJUST_UNIT_ENABLE_WALL_ATTACK is exactly the same for Battering Rams unfortunately.

 

[tzu]

It seems unmoddable.
Game effect behind this EFFECT_ADJUST_UNIT_BYPASS_WALLS is kind of like "all units around me get this ability". It is not attached to attacking unit, it is attached to Siege Tower. And there is no way to filter out unit classes getting this effect. All is hardcoded.

Until we receive the Holy Band-Aid.

 

[acluewithout]

Unfortunately (and surprisingly) I've hit the wall with all these rams. It seems unmoddable.
Game effect behind this EFFECT_ADJUST_UNIT_BYPASS_WALLS is kind of like "all units around me get this ability". It is not attached to attacking unit, it is attached to Siege Tower. And there is no way to filter out unit classes getting this effect. All is hardcoded. Only one argument is exposed "Eneble"(Disable).
So you could re-attach this effect to another unit (say Engineer, or Scout), but you cant really alter how it works. - all units around unit with effect will get this ability.

One option I was looking at was just making the Ram provide +combat strength vs cities for adjacent units (ie no bypass walls at all). Seige towers could then just provide a bigger bonus. For balance, you might then need to buff Seige units by giving them a defence v ranged attacks.