Are Orcs Evil?

[r16]

90% of this thread is above my head but ı also have a post or two on how the Nazis would have liked the eminent proffessor justify them with more justifications on why "evil" had to stomped out or on or whatever the extra word to come after stomping . Like why the proffessor was cold shouldered when he volunteered to serve during the WW ll in code-breaking or the similar but do not like take it as the whole truth because r16 is the one saying it ... And of course , when the Commies take over the Shire , they are indeed thrown out by the war veterans like "peacefully" with violence only at the required level . After establishing some gardener is the highest of them all , not the aristocrats and stuff . A good troll , Tolkien perhaps was .

 

[Evie]

One, he didn't volunteer to serve, he was asked in early 1939 whether he would be willing if his services were required, but wasn't tapped for the job in the end.

Two, given that the views on stomping out evil are in the Lord of the Rings (not in the Hobbit, which is concerned with recovering treasure from a dragon), published in 1954-55, it is difficult to imagine how it influenced something that happened 15 years earlier. Or the actual Nazis themselves, who had already been stomped out a decade before the novel came out.

Three, while people can freely find whatever ideas they want in the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien's own ideas on Nazism are not a secret. We have letters where he says what he has to say on the topic. Words like "Ruddy little ignoramus" (applied to Adolf) and calling the Jews a gifted people that he regret none of his ancestors came from (in a response to German publishers asking for proof of Aryanness) and "...the time is not far distant when a german name will no longer be a source of pride" (in the same response, about all the "Aryan" nonsense germans were getting up to) don't leave much room for doubt about how Tolkien himself felt on the topic.

Fourth, the scouring of the shire is not communistic in any particular. It's the rural-agrarian world of the Shire (which Tolkien loved) revolting against industrialization and its destruction of the countryside (which Tolkien hated). There's literally nothing except a brief reference to the bandits claiming to "redistribute" but not actually doing it to imply they represent communism in any way. And that one implication is weak; governments of all stripes (and capitalist industry, which insist on the importance of maximizing resources available to entrepreneurs so they can invest it most efficiently which is the best way of redistributing) all do that in one form or another.

 

[r16]

the r16 post in question has a claim that London would support a certain foreigner inviting Tolkien to some location in Scotland pre-war so that Tolkien could have his arm bent to fix the next episode to the tastes of this most important customer . My latest post here does not attack your thing about Mordor is not Germany and Adolf is not Sauron in any way . Because even when you could equate Ruhr lsengard with the Ruhr Valley , it is something else , entirely . And Tolkien's like final service to HMG , with a reminder that there were enough veterans of the war to shoulder the burden if there was any trouble , and not just Eton boys . You are starting on the extremely strong and correct premise of it is not Germany .

 

[Patine]

One, he didn't volunteer to serve, he was asked in early 1939 whether he would be willing if his services were required, but wasn't tapped for the job in the end.

Two, given that the views on stomping out evil are in the Lord of the Rings (not in the Hobbit, which is concerned with recovering treasure from a dragon), published in 1954-55, it is difficult to imagine how it influenced something that happened 15 years earlier. Or the actual Nazis themselves, who had already been stomped out a decade before the novel came out.

Three, while people can freely find whatever ideas they want in the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien's own ideas on Nazism are not a secret. We have letters where he says what he has to say on the topic. Words like "Ruddy little ignoramus" (applied to Adolf) and calling the Jews a gifted people that he regret none of his ancestors came from (in a response to German publishers asking for proof of Aryanness) and "...the time is not far distant when a german name will no longer be a source of pride" (in the same response, about all the "Aryan" nonsense germans were getting up to) don't leave much room for doubt about how Tolkien himself felt on the topic.

Fourth, the scouring of the shire is not communistic in any particular. It's the rural-agrarian world of the Shire (which Tolkien loved) revolting against industrialization and its destruction of the countryside (which Tolkien hated). There's literally nothing except a brief reference to the bandits claiming to "redistribute" but not actually doing it to imply they represent communism in any way. And that one implication is weak; governments of all stripes (and capitalist industry, which insist on the importance of maximizing resources available to entrepreneurs so they can invest it most efficiently which is the best way of redistributing) all do that in one form or another.

However, not refuting anything he may or not have said, in his own letters on "Germanness," and "Jewishness," and such, that does make it peculiar and curious, I think would be safest adjectives, the Middle-earth leans HEAVILY on influence from Norse/Teutonic Polytheist Mythology (Pre-Christian Religious Beliefs of GERMANIC peoples), which has also a very large influence and, even obsession, in rhetoric, tenor, motif, and symbolism for Joseph Goebbels and Martin Bormann (even if it's not quite clear exactly how personally swept up by it Hitler and Himmler actually were), and Goebbels and Bormann wanted to, if Germany had won the war, supplant Christianity entirely with Jakob Wilhelm Hauer's pagan revival, "German Faith Movement," as the religion of the German peoples. I'm not saying there was a direct current of thought at any time between Tolkien and Goebbels and Bormann, but his denunciatory letters you quoted seem like they MAY (I don't know for sure) saving face after the matter, considering the biggest mythological and legendary influence on his work, and the intimation of racial hierarchy schemes, that may have unintended by him (Elves are the finest, fairest, and wisest race of Middle-earth, never corrupted, the highest and greatest nobility of Men in Middle-earth, the Dunedain, are marked by having Elven blood, and Orcs and Goblins, theological good and evil aside, are just scum and rabble, Hobbits have the advantage of often being overlooked and underestimated by "their betters," etc.).

 

[Evie]

That is a load of crockery.

One, the letter I quoted most extensively from is from the 1930s, so not "saving face after the fact".

Two, guilt by shared interests (Tolkien was into nordic stuff, Goebbels was, therefore associarion!) is a ridiculous logical fallacy that doesn't stand up to the merest intelectual scrutiny.

Three, elves as incorruptible wise good? Hahaha. Even ignoring the Silmarillion (aka "Elves screw up: the collection"), who fell for Sauron's manipluations and forged the Rings of Power, again? And who even knowing of the One Ring and that it wasn't destroyed, still used their rings through the third age and thus ended up in mortal danger when the One resurfaced? And whomlaments being bainshed from Valinor because of how badly she screwed up? And for that matter, who kidnapped and jailed Thorin and co in the Hobbit? And then there IS the Silm, and assorted massacres carried out by elves, and elves giving in to evil, and elves doing exactly what Morgoth wants.

What the Elves (and Numenoreans, who outside the royal bloodline do not as a rule have elven ancestry) do have is experience and lots of first hand knowledge, which is pretty natural considering they live noticeably longer.

Ultimately, what you're describing is the cliché of elves, what people who only superficially read the book with little attention to details might remember later. Not the reality of what Tolkien wrote.

Don't get me wrong, there are problems with Tolkien's stories. Some of them major, though they mostly stem from ignorance and lack of critical considerstion of the history behind the myths, rather than feom ill intent. But they aren't the ones you list.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Dude, fantasy literally allows for moral determinism to be an actual thing. There's gods and magic, and the rules of physics and basic psychology don't have to exist. If someone writes a god into a story and that god makes claims to what's absolutely right and wrong, then it is so (if the author wishes). If they don't then they don't, such is the power of fiction.

Which is all well and good in the general sense, but when your participation in this thread is to stake your opinion as an Absolute Truth and ignore all other points of view, it doesn't exactly foster a meaningful conversation.

I am interested to know what, "this," is, but, as I've said before, unless it's an official music video, I don't click video links on the Internet. Do you have a text analog?

I mean, that rather defeats the point of a multimedia presentation.

 

[Joij21]

Which is all well and good in the general sense, but when your participation in this thread is to stake your opinion as an Absolute Truth and ignore all other points of view, it doesn't exactly foster a meaningful conversation.

I never said it was the absolute truth. I was merely defending my own opinion.

 

[r16]

yet another hush is in order . Now who would want the good people of CFC to believe that Germans of the Nazi type would want to use the fame of a children book to push their stuff on their racial cousins . Uh , was it really me who said Tolkien will be canonized by the Catholic Church , but like not in this century ?

 

[Evie]

I would laugh so hard if Tolkien got his sainthood before any of the major SFF literature prizes get around to retroactively recognizing him (while falling all over themselves to recognize Lovecraft et al)

 

[r16]

trust me , am an expert on the subject . Just won by 20K at 572th turn out of a 600 turn limit . A score of 2300 rpund while the leading is probably at 3000 . Of the 6 remaining Als , 3 have made it into the 4th era and Gondor will possibly manage to build its unique wonder by 700th if ı don't provide the tech free somehow .

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

It is interesting that in the new Lord of the Ring by Amazon, they have wisely chosen to mix things up and remove skin colour as a determinative of ones race. There has been a lot of gnashing about it, but the world is all the better for it imo.

See in most cultures they tend to represent nature spirits of the trickster or malicious kind. Nature spirits that tend to reflect a single emotion (in some cases more than one but usually all negative) like wrath, greed, lust, gluttony, vengeance, pettiness, etc.

I wouldn't agree with this at all. A lot are celebrated and held up as positive. There are as many tales of them helping humans as hindering.

 

[r16]

uh , this brought up for what ? Regular push of ghe woke agenda ? Anyhow . It turns out Himmler sent secret agents (a task force of 14 by some reports) to ... German libraries in Germany of Adolf Hitler . Some 260 libraries targeted . Collecting information on witches . So that the new Nazi religion could find evidence . To report on how the actually good witches were slandered by various brands of the Church .

 

[Kyriakos]

Don't we have any letters/similar by Tolkien where he explains if the orcs stand for something in particular?
I only recall hearing that he wasn't very keen on the idea of them including females (ie reproducing in this manner), but might in the end have conceded they needed to have such.
In some other orc lore (eg warhammer) they are pretty much plants and have no females. (clearly not the case in Warcraft, though, at least going by the movie)

 

[Plains-Cow]

Every villain is the hero of their own story.

 

[Chuma]

Certainly in his biography Terry Pratchett had someone do him a mod for Oblivion so he did not have to fight the goblins. He once played Oblivion for an entire day rather than do any work and had a crushing deadline.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Certainly in his biography Terry Pratchett had someone do him a mod for Oblivion so he did not have to fight the goblins. He once played Oblivion for an entire day rather than do any work and had a crushing deadline.

One of us, one of us!

 

[PPQ_Purple]

It is interesting that in the new Lord of the Ring by Amazon, they have wisely chosen to mix things up and remove skin colour as a determinative of ones race. There has been a lot of gnashing about it, but the world is all the better for it imo.

The world is newer better for it when someone takes historic art and remodels it to fit the sentiments of the day. For in doing so one looses the very context in which it was created thus damaging its quality and our ability to appreciate and understand it fully. And it just messes up the work overall.

Take Dune for example since it was also recently made into a movie. The entire Fremen society is built around what is essentially Islamic culture. It's not even concealed. You literally have a whole culture of desert dwelling people who use Arabic and specifically Islamic words like Jihad all the time. And it's even more obvious in the books.

Now imagine if someone had taken a look at Dune with a modern social justice lens and seen a story about a bunch of sand dwelling savages who are clearly just renamed Muslims who live in poverty and oppression until a white man arrives from the stars to come and free them. And who than promptly get manipulated by said white man into joining a religion which makes him god emperor. Honestly I am surprised nobody did given the times.

But imagine what would happen if someone had done this and decided that the movie needed all those words and references removed in order to make it fit for modern tastes. Would this even be Dune any more?


Bottom line is that you should not repaint old paintings with a new brush lest you erase the work of the actual painter. Nor should you seek to edit it to fit what ever is pleasing to your tastes and perspective. Instead you should learn to admire and appreciate the work as it was created and allow everyone to come to their own conclusions from what ever perspective they individually have.

 

[Ajidica]

I mean, the Fremen being vaguely Arabic nomads with terms one could learn from "Eastern Religion and Philosophy 101"* has been a criticism of Herbert from the very start.
Plus "mighty whitey coming to free the Fremen" misses one of the key points of the book, which is that Paul is not a good guy. Though so many people missed that Frank Herbert had to write another book effectively titled "Seriously dudes, Paul is not the good guy"!

Plus, every adaptation of Dune emphasizes some things and leaves others out. The Villenueve adaptation chose to focus on the religious and anti-hero elements of Paul, which were largely left out of prior adaptation. David Lynch's version played up the alien and decadent nature of the world, while the Scifi channel miniseries, insofar as it could play up anything beyond "will viewers notice we only have five sets? focused on character drama and making the world feel as big as possible.

*Book nerd digression: The Fremen are technically Zensunni, a merger of Buddhist and Islamic thought, and I've been led to understand the Fremen philosophy draws far more from Buddhist concepts than Islamic, but I don't know enough to say one way or the other. Herbert pulled a similar joke with the religious text of the Empire being the "Orange Catholic Bible".

(Though hilariously every adaptation has erased Frank Herbert's extremely ick habit of making young characters sexually active. Paul is only 16 when Dune starts, and in Children of Dune Leto and Ghanima are only 13. Every adaptation has wisely aged the characters up to be in their very late teens or early 20s.)

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I've been led to understand the Fremen philosophy draws far more from Buddhist concepts than Islamic, but I don't know enough to say one way or the other.

There were a few pieces I came across in the wake of Part 1 discussing in depth Dune's Islamic influences and how they form the conceptual bedrock of the entire project. It's a long read, but Haris Durrani wrote an essay on how far from simply transposing Middle Eastern history into a sci-fi setting, Herbert was engaging with active questions within current theology. One conceptual criticism I've seen against Villeneuve's films is that the Islamic connection has been watered down to virtual irrelevance, likely because it's just so hard to translate this much philosophy to the screen, or as the inevitable casualty of Hollywood gunning for mass-market appeal.

How this is remotely similar to dark-skinned elves "defiling" some fundamental principle of LOTR is beyond me, though. ...No, that's not true. I know the through-line. I just wish I didn't.

 

[Evie]

Fans place a far greater importance on character appearance than Tolkien himself ever did. Descriptions of people are NOT common in his writing, when they appear they are sparse (and mostly involve hair color), and when they sparsely appear they often use words that can be read seven ways to sunday, such as brown, swarty and darker, all of which covers an approximate range from Northern European peasant all the way to Southern Indian lord, and most of which can mean hair color as well as skiun color ; not to mention fair and fairer which can mean pale, and can also mean good-looking (occasionally he does specify fair of skin, but nowhere near always), and also blonde.

It's quite telling about Tolkien's relative lack of interest in character appearances that most of what we know of the Fellowship's appearance we've only found out through posthumously published notes, some of which only appeared in The Nature of Middle Earth a couple years ago. And mysteriously, when we find out in those posthumous note that the fandom has been getting it wrong all along...the fandom usually just ignores what Tolkien said and retain the preexisting description.

Most famously, of course, in the case of Bearded Aragorn, since we've known since the 80s that Tolkien specifically envisioned Aragorn as beardless (and in fact unable to grow facial hair at all) as a mark of his Elven ancestry. Mysteriously, that has stopped precisely nobody from depicting Aragorn as bearded, and it has stopped even fewer people from depicting Aragorn as bearded post-Viggo Mortensen. Likewise, the fact that we now know this also was the case of Faramir, Boromir, Denethor and Imrahil has also done precisely nothing to keep these characters beardless in LOTR art.

Mysteriously also, nobody ever talk about defilement of the work where those beards are concerned.

(And the idea that changing somethign IN AN ADAPTATION is "remodeling historic art" is utter claptrap, for the simple reason that original work and adaptation are and can only be *two distinct piece of art*, neither of which shoudl be a mere reproduction in a different medium).