Are you sticking with civ4?

Yeah, I was going to mention Diablo II was notorious for the lying stats window.

And if we're going to compare early patches, you'd have to look at:
chopping nerfed to 20 hammers.
No infinite anarchy (kudos to moonsinger for those)
Redcoats, cossacks nerfed, and I think there might have been more.
Forge trick removed
Gifting gold per turn and cancelling removed

If you're going to compare later patches, it would be like
queen vespene cost reduced from 150 to 100.

Or unpatched things:
allied mines, sliding command centers, mineral walking, hold position lurkers, observers over turrets, other bannable abuses in tournaments.

And the random events, your position was actually randomness has no place in games, and those games clearly demonstrated high randomness. If you're going to fall back to randomness is ok, random events are not, that's ok.

And flash was clearly unscoutable. He blocked his choke, hid most of his army, made turrets and a sizable goliath force to kill any suicide overlords/mutas, and made barracks behind all those defenses.
 
I built a new computer around Feb of this year, and splurged to get all top of the line stuff so that it lasts me a bit longer (performance wise) than if I had just bought all middle of the road components.

However, I think it quite likely that I'll wait until Civ V has it's first expansion pack or at the bare minimum several months of patches before I pull the trigger on buying it.

I'm thankful for this community, it is the one that I think has Firaxis fix the bugs that the average joe that plays Civ may not even know is there, they just know something is not right, where as a lot of you folks know exactly what is not right and either fix it yourselves or heavens forbid, have firaxis fix their mistakes.

Thanks,

Edit: Actually after seeing one more youtube video, I may have to be the first in line to get a copy of Civ V. It finally looks the way that I'd always hoped a game of Civ would look. Seriously, although it really does look the way that I'd always hoped a game of Civ would look, I'll likely wait at least a couple hours to see the first wave of 'incoming' to get a good feel for what I am to expect, be it bugs that I think I could live with, or not before I make the plunge. The great thing about buying digitally I suppose is being able to make that decission at a moments thought, since if the first 'incoming' is positive, I wouldn't have to wait for the next day to go to the local piggly wiggly store to buy it, could just grab it online and start playing.
 
I think TMIT might have a faulty keyboard? =/
 
The interface will flagrantly tell you a diplo value (say friendly) and show a diplo total (say +15). If you have a vassal with which the AI is annoyed, the game averages it and does not tell you. You are instead mislead by a -1 "we are upset that our rival is your vassal" now showing a total of +14, when the reality is that the AI is cautious with you.
Ah, okay. Yes, if that's the case, then the UI should reflect it. I'm not certain whether I'd classify it as a "blatant lie" (as you do) or as an overlooked modifier, but the distinction is probably academic, no one of us can determine whether the UI was consciously or accidentally written this way. Anyway, I agree with you that modifiers that drive the AI should be open and correctly displayed. I do maintain that Civ4 does a pretty good job at that, actually much better than most other complex strategy games, especially when played with mods like BUG/BULL. But I don't deny that there may be single cases which aren't handled correctly.

If you don't use hotkeys and control shortcuts, you won't realize that they are broken. That does not change the fact that they are broken.

Well, I do use shortcuts, and they don't seem to be broken in my games. I don't use the keyboard directly though. People have actually labeled me as some sort of an input efficiency fetishist. I play with a 10-button programmable mouse and a Strategic Commander which currently has about 60 keystrokes programmed into two profiles. I regularly use Shift and Control for input (I mapped them to the "forward" and "back" buttons of my mouse) and your problems with these keys haven't surfaced in any of my games since 2005.

I also can remember only one time when I accidentally declared war on an AI instead of opening the trade window, but that was my own mistake since I had misremembered the shortcut. I did experience a "sticky Control key" problem with my old keyboard for a while (it was a wireless and there was a problem with transmission between keyboard and receiver), but that could appear with all software on my machine and I actually can't recall it ever surfacing in Civ4. Likewise, I never had a problem with selecting multiple cities when I only wanted to select one.

I usually have no problems stopping move orders. If it's necessary to stop units, then it's the first thing I do after getting out of the "Your city has produced X" loop and unless I'm very unlucky, the units in question haven't moved by then.

I actually appreciate the fact that units with used-up movement point aren't selected by the "select all units of this type" functionality. I use this functionality to group and move units around and for this, I'd have to remove units without movement points manually had they been selected. Not selecting them in the first place suits my usage of the functionality much better.

I acknowledge (as I already said) that the interface has problems with moving units between selection groups. I regard that that as an annoyance that can be remedied, though not totally solved, by mods like PLE. I wish that Firaxis had implemented this functionality better, but imho this is not severe enough to trash a UI element that otherwise works well for me.

If you want to give them a pass for shoddy AI, fine.
I wouldn't call the Civ4 AI shoddy by any means. I think it does a pretty good job considering that it's limited to ad-hoc decisions. It obviously can't satisfy the needs of the top-notch competitive players, but that's a pretty small segment of the game's customers, and for those, Firaxis released the complete AI with an SDK for the modders six months after the game's release (which no competitor has done ever before or since, usually you're lucky if you can tweak some variables and modify some scripts meant to handle specific situations).

The one thing that I wish had been different is that the Civ4 AI doesn't run on its own threads. That's the limiting factor in a lot of AI development, since it forces the AI to make all of its calculations in a very short time frame. However, switching to a multi-threaded AI was probably to risky a decision by the time Civ4 development started.

It is 100% inexcusable to give them a pass for neglecting major gameplay control issues for years, and that alone removes "polished game" status. However, having incomplete VICTORY conditions IE "object of the game" is also really bad, and 2 of the game's victory conditions (UN and apostolic palace, with a B for broken on the latter) are in fact incomplete.
Well, I see your point and I understand your perspective. Still, the things that you label as broken actually do enhance my enjoyment of the game. It's not that I didn't wish that some things were implemented better or had seen more polish (and I agree with your assessment that most functionality that was added post-vanilla could have used a few iterations more), but I still like these things being there. Also, some have been improved by modders (like the random events). I definitely appreciated Firaxis' approach of slapping a lot of content on BtS because tweaking this content later to "get it right" is a task that modders can often do, while introducing features that were never included in the engine (perhaps in favor for a more polished appearance) is much harder.

I think, however, that much of our different views originate from me bein a pure single player, whereas you appear to be a very competitive player who enjoys multiplayer games. This leads to a totally different way of treating the game.
 
It's good to see so many people staying around. I'll have V, but I'll stay around to write NtD-PaG's.
 
Yeah, I was going to mention Diablo II was notorious for the lying stats window.

It wasn't ok back then either, but notice I neglected mentioning D2 :p. All that does is prove Blizzard isn't perfect, which would hurt them more if there were any competent competition.

chopping nerfed to 20 hammers.
No infinite anarchy (kudos to moonsinger for those)
Redcoats, cossacks nerfed, and I think there might have been more.
Forge trick removed
Gifting gold per turn and cancelling removed

Are any of these changes more important than controls that work? Was nerfing a pair of renaissance units while allowing a HIGHER % str increase classical age unit to remain actually IMPROVING balance?

allied mines, sliding command centers, mineral walking, hold position lurkers, observers over turrets, other bannable abuses in tournaments.

I thought some of these things were eventually patched? Also, these things are better comparable to wall whip overflow or anarchy abuse than to things like broken victory conditions/controls!

And the random events, your position was actually randomness has no place in games, and those games clearly demonstrated high randomness.

Events are worse than standard RNG based outcomes because they're not balanced. You usually don't see me complain about RNG battles for example (excepting the by-definition rare game where I lose the game on 5 consecutive 80% losses or something), and especially not about its inclusion in the game.

However, your assertion that those outcomes in that SC2 tournament series is "obviously random" is bull. Look at what you're saying! You're saying that one side sunk 100's and 100's of minerals into defensive structures that don't move, built a lot of a unit (that isn't even in SCII mind you, I assume you mean thors which handle WAY differently from goliaths), etc. Idra chose not to send equal (or even less!) mineral's worth of overlords (or a changeling overseer!) into the terran base to scout. In essence, he chose to go it blind as a result of his opponent's investment in anti-scouting, and paid for it. That is *not* a random outcome, at all. Precious little in that game is actually random, as AFAIK even damage values are fixed in most cases.

I think TMIT might have a faulty keyboard? =/

Try 3 different "faulty keyboards" on 3 different machines, not to mention confirmations from other players. Try again.

Well, I do use shortcuts, and they don't seem to be broken in my games. I don't use the keyboard directly though. People have actually labeled me as some sort of an input efficiency fetishist. I play with a 10-button programmable mouse and a Strategic Commander which currently has about 60 keystrokes programmed into two profiles. I regularly use Shift and Control for input (I mapped them to the "forward" and "back" buttons of my mouse) and your problems with these keys haven't surfaced in any of my games since 2005.

Okay, maybe there is a workaround involving heavy use of 3rd party software/hardware that I wasn't aware existed.

In order to cause a lot of these issues, it seems you have to play quickly enough. Forced unit movement is a good example - someone once told me about "orders given in the last 8 seconds before a turn ends" making a difference or some such bullcrap (not what they said, but that it actually matters).

These issues are real, and I did not list all of them.
 
No, that 5 game series was BW, Jaedong vs Flash. Idra doesn't prevent scouting that hard, and conversely you can peak overlords into the corners of their base and later changelings/overseers.

http://www.youtube.com/v/r5IglWEypCQ&fs=1

They patched sliding cc's, but everything else is there (and most banned from tournaments).
 
WTH are you guys talking about?
 
i won't be attempting to learn a new game anytime soon especially a game so complex as civ. so i'd probably stick with 4 and just watch people play 5 on youtube minus the rage moments.
 
TheMeInTeam believes that Civ4 has some glaring problems in it, and thus cannot be considered a fully finished game (and therefore the release of Civ5 is premature — civ4 should be finished first). Psyringe and vicawoo seem to disagree; they say that although Civ4 still has bugs and balance problems, it is not significantly worse than other 'finished' games.

To be honest, I think the argument is a bit pointless. It seems to just be an argument over a somewhat arbitrary concept of what a finished game should be like. I think it's pretty clear to all of us that Civ4 has a bunch of problems, and that it would be nice if those problems were fixed by an official patch. I don't think it's really worth arguing about how important it is. It's not like we have any control over it anyway. — (... or is there some dimension to this discussion that I've missed?)
 
The other dimension to the discussion is whether or not civ V can beat civ IVs standards, in tandem with whether or not any GOOD TBS competition is released near the civ V date. If civ IV were to go toe-to-toe with a similar game concept that ran more smoothly, had better competitive balance, etc it would have lost a LOT of its sales. However, nobody's stepping up, so we're seeing the EA sports madden effect in play here (except that civ IV is not THAT bad!) God madden is awful. You can't even play against other humans because people quit and if you want a ranked game to count, have fun vs the AI for the next 40 minutes :/. Some "multiplayer"...that alongside the fact that the thing almost never plays like football, but rather "glitchball".

So while Civ IV has a lot of incompletion, it is at least still better than monopoly franchises by EA :sad:.
 
i won't be attempting to learn a new game anytime soon especially a game so complex as civ. so i'd probably stick with 4 and just watch people play 5 on youtube minus the rage moments.

That's one other good reason sticking to civ4. I still remember how frustrating it was trying to learn civ3 when you hadn't played similar games before. Learning civ4 was a bit easier, but not much. Based on what I'v read about the upcoming civ5, it will be a "totally" different game so there will be a lot of learning once again.

Can't wait to see all those "rage moments". :)
 
The DLC stuff is not something that I find enticing. Besides there are some gameplay changes that I'm not really sure about. I'll pick it up when it goes gold unless I need a game to play but given my limited gaming time and the number of mods and scenarios for civ IV that I want to play that seems unlikely.
 
DLC is bad news from my point of view. I want people to just make the best game they can make, and then sell it for what they think is a fair price. What DCL says to me is that they are going imagine the best game they can make, work out which bits can be removed, sell a half-made game for full price, and then sell the rest of it for extra.

It's bad enough that many games are released unfinished with the intension of using patches to finish them post-release — I really hope we don't get into a situation where games are released unfinished and to get the rest of the game we have to pay extra. "Sure, the full game was complete junk. It was a rip off. But you're not getting that money back, so you might as well pay a little bit more to make the game actually worth playing..."

Maybe DLC isn't quite that bad, but I certainly find it a bit off putting; especially in light of what we've been discussing about Civ4. The important thing is that the main game gives good value for money. Ideally, the main game should be judged on its own merits and DLC should be assessed separately. The problem is that since there is this tendency for modern games to improve as they are patched and supported, and that is usually taken into account when new games are reviewed. The mere existence of DLC bodes poorly for the main game; because the improvements are then likely to be things that cost money.
 
Please excuse my ignorance but what does DLC stand for?
 
Please excuse my ignorance but what does DLC stand for?
DownLoadable Content. Small official additions to the game which you can download and add to it. Usually cost a small amount of money. Examples for Civ5 are additional maps and/or civilizations. Examples for other games are "Horse Armor" (added two additional items to the RPG Oblivion) and "Mehrune's Dagger" (added a quest to the same game).
 
DownLoadable Content. Small official additions to the game which you can download and add to it. Usually cost a small amount of money. Examples for Civ5 are additional maps and/or civilizations. Examples for other games are "Horse Armor" (added two additional items to the RPG Oblivion) and "Mehrune's Dagger" (added a quest to the same game).

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Now the previous remarks make sense to me!
 
@TMIT thanks for clarification of the diplo problems, now I have finally clue why I got DoWeb by some AI when they were friendly status with me...(well not so!)

In CIV they solve it btw... there will be no diplo modifiers visible...huzzah! better play (probably not...it will piss me)
 
DLC is bad news from my point of view. I want people to just make the best game they can make, and then sell it for what they think is a fair price. What DCL says to me is that they are going imagine the best game they can make, work out which bits can be removed, sell a half-made game for full price, and then sell the rest of it for extra.

It's bad enough that many games are released unfinished with the intension of using patches to finish them post-release — I really hope we don't get into a situation where games are released unfinished and to get the rest of the game we have to pay extra. "Sure, the full game was complete junk. It was a rip off. But you're not getting that money back, so you might as well pay a little bit more to make the game actually worth playing..."

Maybe DLC isn't quite that bad, but I certainly find it a bit off putting; especially in light of what we've been discussing about Civ4. The important thing is that the main game gives good value for money. Ideally, the main game should be judged on its own merits and DLC should be assessed separately. The problem is that since there is this tendency for modern games to improve as they are patched and supported, and that is usually taken into account when new games are reviewed. The mere existence of DLC bodes poorly for the main game; because the improvements are then likely to be things that cost money.

DLC is something that is killing games... I see it by Bioware last year... too much hungriness leads to releasing subpar DLC and subpar expansion (yeah I did buy the Awakening even if it was clear it will be underdeveloped given the time to finish it)

And I dont see there light in the tunnel, it will be only worse.
 
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