"Areas Of Operations" - Working With, Not Against, The Artificial Idiot

[Ozymandias]

This just came to mind, right after reading about @rhodie's frustrations with the apparently impossible task of making the AI use Aircraft Carriers realistically. And we can also jump up and down, screaming about Artillery, or Armies (and it can't just be me, right... ? ) (And a disclaimer to rhodie - Old Comrade, I'm afraid this won't help your particular problem, at all.)

Simply by playing a game of Civ, we're already accepting its many, insurmountable abstractions, like, say, Artillery ( )

Let's talk about several which are built into naval operations, starting with movement:
The Earth's circumference is about 25,000 miles / 40,000 km.

• Therefore, on a 256 x 256 Civ map, each tile (well, OK, at the Equator anyway) is 100 miles.
• It's just over 3,000 miles (4,800 km) from London UK to Colonial Boston. On that same Civ map, that's 30 tiles.
• In the 18th Century, it took a frigate about 4 weeks to make the journey.
• In the "vanilla" Civ game, a Frigate has a MF of 5 at a point in game when 1 Turn might equal 10 years ...
• ... I'm hoping I've made my point.

Arguably, this can be addressed by changing MFs, at least by giving the Frigate an MF of 30 - but what to do then, hypothetically later on, with Aegis Cruisers? Changing MFs is problematic, and best left to any Mod or Scenario designer's calculation.

That all being said, two other aspects of the evolution of naval warfare came to mind:

1. On a strategic level, an unmoved ship (or, more precisely, whatever you perceive that Unit to be - A single ship. A task force? A fleet?) is unlikely to simply hang out at the dockyard for a decade. It's far more likely for or it (or perhaps some of the unit's constituent ships, able to readily signal the rest of the Unit, as needed.)
2. Advances in the evolution of naval combat technology in the game are, primarily, rolled up into AF and DF, and maybe MF and the "Invisible" attributes. Basically thicker armor and heavier guns.

This completely ignores two critical factors, the first of which is gun range. Historically, if two gun mounted ships are in all other ways equal, the one's whose guns have the longer range will win. You don't need to (OK, 'm stretching the historical metaphor here) sail the Yamato into the USS Maine's gunnery range to sink it, let alone risk having the Yamato's paint job be scratched int the process.)

As well demonstrated in the Pacific in WW2, the range of a flimsy Aircraft Carrier's airplanes against the Yamato more than doubled down on that.

I'm not going to suggest any specific numbers or multiples here; merely provide the info below.

Spoiler Naval Gun Ranges 1700 - 1945 :

For the record, I've always been against giving a battleship an "unrealistic" range of, say, 3 ties - 300 miles.

Not any more.

 

[revenantlast]

a Frigate has a MF of 5 at a point in game when 1 Turn might equal 10 years ...

I've always found the time scale a bit off..in a new far off town, it can take 15 turns to produce a rifleman, which as you say could be 150 years!

Regarding artillery, this frustrated me for years, i tried every trick and nothing seemed to satisfy... until quiet recently i read about using Steph's editor to give units different AI strategy. Now i give the ground artillery the naval power strategy and they really do work. In battle, the Artificial Idiots bombard with them like they do with ships, just with the terrain reversed.

In terms of naval range, I have to admit modern military history isn't my strong point, so my units tend to have a longer range because it suits the game play ... but again recently I've been focused on turning most of my warships into missile transports so the AI can launch various naval missiles instead of bombarding.

One thing that has always bugged me about the game, is the way Marines work. In real life marines are trained in naval combat but in the game, this only translates as 'can attack a city from a ship'. This is only useful in a handful of situation and the AI usually just lumps Marines in with other offensive units, so you are as likely to find them in the desert as on a boat. When I first read about amphibious warfare, I assumed it meant they could attack other ships. As a work around I have them set with the tactile missile+foot flags. I give them a ZOC, blitz and lethal sea bombard, then make them only transportable on my assault ships.

The AI still doesn't totally get them, but its satisfying to see them use their ZOC to protect against enemy ships!

 

[Ozymandias]

Arguably, the type of "Marine" you're describing is very "Age Of Sail," and I'd suggest that an actual unit representing an actual trained boarding party would be a a far lower scale than Civ: Why not simply give the appropriate ship units the "Capture" flag? I've always surmised that (at whatever ambiguous scale Civ is meant to represent) "Marine" units are more meant to be "D-Day" unit types.

Your workaround does sound quite good, and is a not unusual "variation on a theme" for limiting what types of units can and can't be carried. A question: you're giving the Marine (infantry) units ZOC, blitz and lethal sea bombard? I'm not quite following: You used Quint's or Steph's editor to give Marines lethal sea bombardment? How does this work out in-game, and does the AI actually wind up ever using Marines to storm any beaches?

Expanding on all this - How are you coping with the AI's general reluctance to build ships?

 

[revenantlast]

so to expand on my marine (which is really a naval platoon i guess... i usually swap the first attack animation for a cannon)
I wanted them to be able to attack from a ship to take small islands and coastal towns as normal, but I also waned them to attack other ships to add a layer of defense to my warships (like its filled with special trained naval fighters instead of just ground troops)

In the standard editor, I set them up as offensive ground troops with the 'amphibious' flag, but i give them ZOC, a decent bombard strength, range and ROF (crucially better than my standard ships).
I set them with the 'lethal sea bombardment' flag, so they can sink ships and also the 'tactical missile' flag which allows them to bombard from a ship and the 'foot unit' flag to limit their transport.
The result is the Human Player can fire from a ship, adding additional cannon fire to your naval attacks and use their ZOC to attack enemy ships passing by, but then can use them to actually take the coastal towns as well.

For the AI i have two routes.
First is to have them set as offensive troops (like your standard marine unit) and have the ships set to naval transport strategy, the AI doesn't know it can use their bombard from ships, but i believe I've seen them fire using their ZOC at passing enemy ships. Making them the only unit to load on warships means once your coastal town has been thoroughly bombarded they naturally either attack from the ship or unload onto the coast and take the city.
The second is to use Steph's editor to have them set as tactical nukes (but without any of the prerequisites) and the ships as missile transport strategy. Now the AI will use them from the ships to bombard ships or towns, but doesn't know they can actually attack towns and take them.
.
my solution so far (untested) is to set them as both strategies and hope the AI manages to match the correct missile/offensive units to the corresponding ships when it produces them (a guy can dream right?)

As for production of ships, I set most of my powerful ships (and my naval-marines) to auto-produce from wonders/improvements so it really only has 2 or 3 smaller costing ships to worry about. And i give most of my Civs the build ships often flag but to be fair they still lag a bit.

 

[Ozymandias]

You must have done something interesting with your Marine unit stats for a Lethal Bombardment against ships - Shall we say I'm curious

BTW the "Build Often / Never" flags for a Civ only affect the AI's "decisions" somewhere in the 1% - 5% range.

Another thought: Somewhere in the copious notes I've been pouring through recently, I came across a suggestion to give (post-Galley) navy heavy-hitters the ability to carry a unit or 2.

I'm also a bit confused viz. your AI navy settings - To clarify, you've flagged your Marines as CMs, but (unless I'm really missing something here) w/out the CM Strategy - and then the Marines themselves (not the ships) both bombard AND take the town?

 

[revenantlast]

I'm also a bit confused viz. your AI navy settings - To clarify, you've flagged your Marines as CMs, but (unless I'm really missing something here) w/out the CM Strategy - and then the Marines themselves (not the ships) both bombard AND take the town?

Sorry no, I set the marines with the 'tactical missile' ability (can bombard from ships, like tactical nukes) without the 'nuclear weapon' or 'cruise missile' abilities... this means the marines can bombard from a ship but wont explode or cause nuclear war. They can attack cities from a ship, just like regular marines with the 'amphibious' ability.

This works great for the human player, but I'm still deciding how to set up the AI strategy...
If i set them with Stephs editor as tactical nukes, the AI will load them onto warships, flagged with the 'naval missile transport' strategy and use their bombard from ships (cant remember if they explode or not because its a long time since i tested this)
If i set them as normal marines (offensive ground strategy), the AI uses them as normal marines but only loadable on warships set as normal transport ships. They will occasionally use their ZOC to attack enemy ships (also cant remember if they use a defensive bombard when the ship is attacked directly)

As for the stats, they're a bit fuzzy too.. i originally came up with this for a (now lost) age of discovery/pirate mod i was doing years ago!
The basic method was to give them a better range, ROF and bombard strength than the ships they are loaded on (i guess their bombardment represent elite naval troops, manning a ships cannons or bringing their own?), to give a definite advantage to loading them onto your ships, rather than say stacking 2 ships.
Currently I'm working on a modern scenario and playing around with stats MASSIVELY to give a sense of specialized artillery.
So in my current mind they have a low ROF ( maybe 2) and a really high bombard strength (maybe 100) and a medium range (maybe 2)...compared to my assault ships (which they load onto) who currently have bombard strength 80, range 1 and ROF 1 (I give mechanized units like ships +20 def, and no bonus HP)
These stat may seem... well... eccentric... but in the context of my mod they work!

To be honest, i have a list of AI problems I'm testing in my current mod and i think this one has just been moved back to the top..as i say, it works fine for the human player and with the ZOC get around, it at least gives the impression of the AI using them against over ships.

Regarding ship production, have you come across anything which encourages them? at the moment every idea i have ends with an auto-producing wonder of some kind!

 

[Ozymandias]

Re: AI Ship Building - No one has, even The Best Among Us. The best solution has proven to be an Improvement which auto-produces Hulls (deep in the db somewhere is a unit set of 4 or 5 different "Hull" units made by Wyrmshadow.) Unit upgrade path(s) are needed for the Hulls, but it works - Except that the AI only uses Carriers as platforms for re-basing. I believe that the best "work around" is @Civinator's as described HERE.

 

[Civinator]

Oz, I cannot read the workaround that is linked in your post, but the best way to have a lot of normal produced ships in your mod/scenario is to make them really cheap and not expensive as they were in reality. This is Civ 3 knowledge long before I posted something about modding Civ 3. Additionally a lot can be done with the concept of advanced autoproduction, that in fact was created by me. Some different hull units for capital ships and carriers per example can be found in my mod CCM2.

As in this thread marines are also one of the topics: In my CCM mods they are set 'D-Day-like' having blitz attack with movement restrictions that allow only blitz attack when attacking landunits from board of ships (or at land when attacking at roaded terrain).

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

my solution so far (untested) is to set them as both strategies and hope the AI manages to match the correct missile/offensive units to the corresponding ships when it produces them (a guy can dream right?)

AI strategies are exclusive. The computer sees them as separate units, one for each strategy, and will judge their build value and use on that basis. I can't confirm which strategy is assigned when it is auto-produced or promoted, though I suspect it's the first listed in the editor.

 

[Ozymandias]

Oz, I cannot read the workaround that is linked in your post, but the best way to have a lot of normal produced ships in your mod/scenario is to make them really cheap and not expensive as they were in reality. This is Civ 3 knowledge long before I posted something about modding Civ 3. Additionally a lot can be done with the concept of advanced autoproduction, that in fact was created by me. Some different hull units for capital ships and carriers per example can be found in my mod CCM2.

It really has been a long time. (1) I don't recall cost being a solution for "encouraging" Civs on large land masses to build ships (as an aside - roughly how much cheaper?), and (2) I haven't had the pleasure to revisit CCM2 - or, for that matter, time/energy to play a "proper" game in (sadly) quite some time. Much of what I'm doing these days is catching up before properly diving back into Terra Fantasia. For the record, yours & Tony's mods are really the only two I want to "deep dive" back into beforehand. And I will be paying especially close attention to advanced auto-production

My (plainly faulty) recollection was that Wyrmshadow had made those handful of Hull Units for the AI, first, to auto-produce, and then upgrade accordingly. Were those meant for your advanced auto-production method?

As in this thread marines are also one of the topics: In my CCM mods they are set 'D-Day-like' having blitz attack with movement restrictions that allow only blitz attack when attacking land units from board of ships (or at land when attacking at roaded terrain).

At least I do remember that

AI strategies are exclusive. The computer sees them as separate units, one for each strategy, and will judge their build value and use on that basis. I can't confirm which strategy is assigned when it is auto-produced or promoted, though I suspect it's the first listed in the editor.

I do recall reading, somewhere along the way, that having both the "Naval Power" (with some AF/DF) and the "Naval Transport" flags checked will increase the AI's production of transports.

Thanks, guys, and C'est la guerre!

 

[Civinator]

My (plainly faulty) recollection was that Wyrmshadow had made those handful of Hull Units for the AI, first, to auto-produce, and then upgrade accordingly. Were those meant for your advanced auto-production method?

Wyrmshadow made a crucial post about units that are not buildable, but upgradeable very long time ago, when I made my first steps in modding Civ 3. At that time the philosophy was to place immobile units in premade maps, that can be upgraded to units with the king flag. Remnants of those ideas can still be seen in AOI, per example placed in Constantinople (British BB Contract Turkey).

In this and the following posts of the CCM thread many years later I showed a method where one building is able to produce a cornucopia of different units for different civs, that can be set to be upgradable, but not buildable: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ccm-epic-mod-preview-thread.291104/page-4#post-7491442

Here is a screenshot of the heavy tank factory in CCM2 and the many different units that can be produced for different civs by one single building. As the number of possible buildings in Civ 3 is limited to 256, this method allows a lot of additional units in C3C mods and scenarios.

Spoiler :

Wyrmshadow posted his hull units Jul 24, 2009 / Oct 5, 2016 without a further comment, but I´m very happy that he created these units (as all his other thousands of wonderful units, that are a delight for every Civ 3 gamer).

 

[Ozymandias]

I think I'll simply quote Stormrage's first post after yours (he might be gone, but he is not forgotten) -

"Jesus Christ, what planet are you from!? This is pure genius! Pure!!!!!"

- z