As if protective couldn't be more overpowered...

[aronnax]

If you're having that much trouble against Protectiv civs, why not change your strategy when attacking one? Why not pillage their improvements to ruin their economy?. If this doesn't draw the defenders out from behind their city walls, camp you units around the city, making tiles unworkable, the city will quicky fall to pieces, forcing the defenders to attack you. This should help weaken the civ quite a bit.

Wait, they attack you if you siege them long enough?

I got 7 knights to pillage and siege a city for 14 turns while waiting for the artillary and the main force to sweep through the rest of Greece. The city fell from size 14 to 7. Not one unit came out and attacked my knights.

I captured the city later and it drop to 4,(LOTS of angry citizens) and it took a LONG time to get the population back to 14 and rebuild the improvements.

 

[Elrohir]

For those who already read (and somehow remember) an earlier topic of mine, you'll know I'm a staunch opponent of the protective trait. In short, it sucks and I think Firaxis should tone it down or get rid of it altogether. Outnumbered archers killing prateorians is a joke and the trait does very little for us aggressive human players who enjoy expanding. It's a trait meant primarily for the cpu's and its sole intent is to drive human players crazy and cuss at probability margins.

I was hoping the protective trait would somehow be toned down in BTS. Imagine my surprise when I find it wasn't toned down, it was made even stronger! Enter Sitting Bull and his Native American casino swindlers. As many probably know, Sitting Bull has the protective trait. In addition, his special building, the Totem Pole, gives +3 xp to archer units. Let's do the math..... 3 str (archer's strength) + 50%(archer city defense trait) +25%(fortify bonus) +20%(city gar I) + 25%(city gar II with Totem Pole) + 25%(if city is on a hill) + 35%(the usual average city defense). That's 180% total, meaning each archer has a strength of 8.4, which is more than a praetorian! If it's a Longbowman, each has a strength of 16.8, which is more than a rifleman! The worst part? The archers have low starting strength, so they heal close to full health if left unchecked for just ONE turn, so a city pretty much has to be captured in one turn or your entire offensive is over, period.

Oh and don't even get me started on his special unit, the "Dog Soldier." 4 strength with a 100% bonus to infantry. Why that's, *gasp* 8 strength! The same as a praetorian and that's not even counting the city bonuses! Talk about a slap in the face to Rome's finest!

My god, with a defense like this, it's a miracle the United States even managed to conquer the Indians at all . Did Native Americans have machetes to the Firaxis developer's throats? What was Firaxis thinking? Now I'm being forced to handpick all my opponents out of fear Sitting Bull will randomly take a crap on my starting continent.

Then use siege units! Or bring extra Axemen. Attacking a Protective civ pre-Construction is possible, it's just costly, and happens a bit later. (And yes, you can take their capitol, it's just extra costly)


And for all those people crying racism - lighten up. He was being sarcastic.

 

[afa2000]

Protective should give bonus like 25 % defense/attack in your own territory, not only at cities, so you could get rid of pillagers too or attacking stacks before they reach your city. Because once a stack reach a city, cats collateral damage makes all defensive bonuses useless.

 

[dh_epic]

So, basically, you hate that it's actually challenging to conquer the world now?

 

[InFlux5]

Praets are broken, but I think he was just using them as a reference point since that's the best you can do in that era.

Sitting Bull's advantage won't go away, as some have suggested, since those promotions will still be around when he upgrades his units. He's definitely the hardest civ to take out. But what's wrong with that? Every civ has strengths and weaknesses. He doesn't have much else going for him besides those super Archers.

The bottom line here is, you have to adapt to your situation in civ. If you see Sitting Bull close to your borders, forget about the early rush and pursue another strategy. Box him in and turn up the culture. There's more than one way to win the game.

 

[MisterBarca]

Someone complaining about Protective civs?

LMAO.

 

[MisterBarca]

Having just now read his other thread, I can positively say that the thread starter is a ****** or a troll.

 

[Alazay]

"Boo hoo, there's someone I can't just stomp with my Praetorians. Boo hoo." Try using siege engines like everyone else. The Romans certainly did.

Regarding historical accuracy... well you're talking about a game here. Historically accurate Native Americans would be permanently stuck in the Stone Age. The Civ Barbarian state advances farther by the Middle Ages than the Native Americans (here meaning the Plains Indians) ever did. But I do think the United States had slightly better weaponry than the Roman Legions at the time they were fighting them, and those Stone Age savages killed a lot of Industrial Age Americans.

You are a complete moron. The united states had slightly better weaponry than ancient Rome? Are you ********? Seriously, are you?

Secondly, if the original poster was racist you are running your own chapter of the KKK. What kind of sheet wearing a-hole says "Those Stone Age savages killed a lot of industrial Age Americans"? Excuse me? Is this 1945? We genocided the Indians, not the other way around.

You are a turd. Protective isn't that great either, I mean come on Praetorians are the most overpowered units in the game.

AL

 

[Bongo-Bongo]

Wait, they attack you if you siege them long enough?

I got 7 knights to pillage and siege a city for 14 turns while waiting for the artillary and the main force to sweep through the rest of Greece. The city fell from size 14 to 7. Not one unit came out and attacked my knights.

I captured the city later and it drop to 4,(LOTS of angry citizens) and it took a LONG time to get the population back to 14 and rebuild the improvements.

It might of been luck that this happened, but I've sieged a city before for some of the defenders to attack. It wasn't all of them, but it was enough to allow me to take the city easier.

 

[Re/\/\eDy]

Alright, well when I first made the post, I'll admit I hadn't given the expansion enough of a chance (I just got it two days ago). I found out catapults have some kind of "maximum damage" thing where they're guaranteed a withdrawal when sieging, meaning you don't have to risk losing any catapults, unlike in the previous Civ IV installments when you had to basically suicide them. This means a lot of opportunities for free collateral damage. Unfortunately, archers only have 3 strength, so the collateral damage is VERY small, but at least now I don't have to worry about losing my catapults. In addition, the new espionage system makes it slightly easier with city revolts to invade.

As for destroying improvements to force people out of cities, yea this doesn't work for me. The computer doesn't seem to care what happens, so long as they are warm and comfy in their cities. The only exception is on resource points, where they place a single unit.

As for the comments about Indians, yea I was just being sarcastic . But seriously, some do run casinos that are fraud .

 

[Bulbhead]

I just wiped Sitting Bull from my continent playing Ramses, he was helpless against my War Chariots.

 

[civzombie]

Having conducted two wars against sitting bull, I can say that the worst part about those dogmen is that they can be build w/o resources. Normally I almost always attack a neighbor AI when I see the opportunity to deny their access to metal. That normally prevents them from getting axeman and spearmen, which are a pain to attack when they are mixed with some archers. Sitting bull just keeps on pumping out those dogmen no matter what, which waste on my attacking axemen and swords more than his archers.

I think that one way to handle him before catapults is to build the great wall and embed the forthcoming super spy. Then, use an army of fast moving spies and chariots or HA to blitz him w/ city revolts and mounted attacks. This only works well if you can keep him from getting spearmen, of course, so open borders to keep track of his metals.

 

[MrFelony]

racist? he seems more upset about the problems it gives him in game. thank god they didnt make an Israeli civ with protive trait and a "dog warrior" like unit. then he'd be anti-semitic too.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

He maths on the prates versus archers isn't too hot given that city raider promotions make a significant difference to those figures.

Protective is a pain, but less so than longbows which should be a field weapon more than a city defender weapon and limited to England, not given to every Tom, Dick and Harry. They can have other types of bows and crossbows or just a pointed stick.

 

[botur2young]

You are a complete moron. The united states had slightly better weaponry than ancient Rome? Are you ********? Seriously, are you?

Secondly, if the original poster was racist you are running your own chapter of the KKK. What kind of sheet wearing a-hole says "Those Stone Age savages killed a lot of industrial Age Americans"? Excuse me? Is this 1945? We genocided the Indians, not the other way around.

You are a turd. Protective isn't that great either, I mean come on Praetorians are the most overpowered units in the game.

AL

Have you heard of sarcasm?

 

[Corn]

No, that's called humor, lets not be oversensitive shall we?

The casino jibe was pretty racist/ridiculous. . .

 

[OldDays]

In my first BTS game I was fiddeling around with the totem pole... beelined feudalism and build some nice wonders... once longbows were available I switched to full war mode, producing Drill IV and Drill III units right off the bat ...and was taking Quin out completely with these baybies (took 4 cities)

Later in the game my good ol' pal Karl took the AP from Isabella... about 10 turns later EVERY AI declared war on me... even Karl who was still pleased with me ...must have been a crusade against me triggered by an AP resolution

...so that was too much of a dogpile to handel with as Karl and Alex shortly after arrived with their improved AI megastacks

 

[MangleMeElmo]

LOL @ all the poltically correct fascists in this thread.

Seriously though, Protective just means that it's not wise to attack them until you have siege weapons. I like to give my catapults Drill promotions (1 and 2 at least) so they negate the 1st strikes of archers. Really, Protective is easily countered with siege units. Even the Romans used siege units, despite having an overpowered UU.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

For those who already read (and somehow remember) an earlier topic of mine, you'll know I'm a staunch opponent of the protective trait. In short, it sucks and I think Firaxis should tone it down or get rid of it altogether. Outnumbered archers killing prateorians is a joke and the trait does very little for us aggressive human players who enjoy expanding. It's a trait meant primarily for the cpu's and its sole intent is to drive human players crazy and cuss at probability margins.

I was hoping the protective trait would somehow be toned down in BTS. Imagine my surprise when I find it wasn't toned down, it was made even stronger! Enter Sitting Bull and his Native American casino swindlers. As many probably know, Sitting Bull has the protective trait. In addition, his special building, the Totem Pole, gives +3 xp to archer units. Let's do the math..... 3 str (archer's strength) + 50%(archer city defense trait) +25%(fortify bonus) +20%(city gar I) + 25%(city gar II with Totem Pole) + 25%(if city is on a hill) + 35%(the usual average city defense). That's 180% total, meaning each archer has a strength of 8.4, which is more than a praetorian! If it's a Longbowman, each has a strength of 16.8, which is more than a rifleman! The worst part? The archers have low starting strength, so they heal close to full health if left unchecked for just ONE turn, so a city pretty much has to be captured in one turn or your entire offensive is over, period.

Oh and don't even get me started on his special unit, the "Dog Soldier." 4 strength with a 100% bonus to infantry. Why that's, *gasp* 8 strength! The same as a praetorian and that's not even counting the city bonuses! Talk about a slap in the face to Rome's finest!

My god, with a defense like this, it's a miracle the United States even managed to conquer the Indians at all . Did Native Americans have machetes to the Firaxis developer's throats? What was Firaxis thinking? Now I'm being forced to handpick all my opponents out of fear Sitting Bull will randomly take a crap on my starting continent.

You really have no clue what you're talking about. Firstly, the strength of a unit does not affect how fast it heals. All units health is measured as x/100 internally. If a unit heals 10% per turn, it heals 10/100. So a an archer would heal 0.3hp in that case (A praetorian 0.8 for example). Unit strength != unit HP.

Whine about losing Praets to Archers more though please, I find it hilarious that the fact that they've changed the game so you can't just build a stack of Gaytorians and eliminate any city they come across. Damn I guess you'll actually have to learn some strategy and skill to take a city...

 

[facistal]

I am a big fan or the MC sligshot in general and with sitting bull, I got early crossbows (the most underrated unit in the game IMO). Cver crossbows + othr promos out of the gate are a great counter to longbows.

Anyhow, i think that having civs in the game that are all D and no O are great for flavour. I like the fact that in BTS all the AI's seem to be playing different from each other.