As if protective couldn't be more overpowered...

[THE MIGHTY 8TH]

You could always edit the unit strengths to your liking, by using an xml editor, the file you want is - Sid Meiers Civiliation4/Assets/XML/Units/CIV4UnitInfos

 

[BYC]

If a Protected civ doesn't come out and defend his improvements, just keep pillaging them. You get the $$$, and they're just gonna fall back further and further in everything. Declare peace, and once you shoot past them in tech, build better units and then wipe them out. Longbowmen still can't stand up to City Raider 3 Grendiers after some collateral damage.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I found out catapults have some kind of "maximum damage" thing where they're guaranteed a withdrawal when sieging, meaning you don't have to risk losing any catapults, unlike in the previous Civ IV installments when you had to basically suicide them.

Actually seige weren't made any STRONGER; they can still die attacking, the only garunteed withdrawl is if they would have otherwise won.
The solution is to not play against the str. of the prot. trait. If they get ahead and you need to declare war, let them hole up in their cities, pillage the countryside and comeback when you have an advantage. If you don't attack their cities, then prot. does nothing for them.

And it is no longer just a trait for the AI! Turn on protective AI, and you will be glad of having it quite often, I promise.

 

[Optimizer]

I agree that two promotions for Protective leaders are a bit too much. I would remove the First Strike promotion, and compensate with cheaper Bunkers and Security Bureaus.

 

[Re/\/\eDy]

Actually seige weren't made any STRONGER; they can still die attacking

Hey you're right, catapults still die attacking! Then what's up with the new "maximum damage" concept Firaxis is talking about in the in-game concept section? I know it has to serve some purpose because the "flanking" concept was created to combat it.

 

[romelus]

just use catapults. nothing in the game counters siege except one promotion. if you try to brute force your way into a well entrenched protective capital you are a fool.

 

[Underdawg]

I am a big fan or the MC sligshot in general and with sitting bull, I got early crossbows (the most underrated unit in the game IMO). Cver crossbows + othr promos out of the gate are a great counter to longbows.

Anyhow, i think that having civs in the game that are all D and no O are great for flavour. I like the fact that in BTS all the AI's seem to be playing different from each other.

Crossbowmen? Meh... they cost too much. For a bit more hammers, you could get 2 axemen or 1.5 swordsmen. Or something like that.

 

[meatwad4289]

My god, with a defense like this, it's a miracle the United States even managed to conquer the Indians at all

We gave them Blankets...

There is the slightest tinge of racism in this thread...

There is the slightest tinge of Dumbassism in this thread...

Hardly. It's humor. I'm Native American and I certainly don't feel this inferiority that you're feeling.

I am only about a quarter Native America,(Cherokee, Chippewa, Iroquois, possibly more) I didn't find it racist, however, Anything people say that's racist, I usually laugh at. Why? because God made us different races to laugh. People who search for racism either are racist against the group believing they are to dumb to understand the difference between a joke and serious, or people who believe their own people are inferior.

that was definitely a racist comment..

that was definitely a dumbass comment.. <-refering to yours.
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Protective leaders are indeed dangerous enemies to face. How can you win a war when you expend 3 times the troops to capture each city.....

When I goto war... I don't send in the welcoming committee nor do I attack in one location. Depending on if I'm attacking on the same continent or if I'm attacking a different continent. I attack on the same ground, My each border I have with them has 2 to 3 spots loaded with troops If I don't have a border, I send them into my allies territory, While I send ships full of troops to the other side. Once the troops are in position, I don't goto war. I first switch all city production possible to military for the next few turns, then I ask them for all their money. Then I declare war. This ensures if I need backup my cities are already sending and making more troops, this also makes sure they are broke and havea harder time of doing so, and I'm in the irght positions It prevents them from getting passed me and getting into my own borders. If i have a small enough border(perhaps penninsula) i form a military wall.

I dont win because my troops are better.. I win because I outnumber them.

just use catapults. nothing in the game counters siege except one promotion. if you try to brute force your way into a well entrenched protective capital you are a fool.

fool my ass. the term is BRAVE. And the fact that these aren't real lives they are disposable so you make as many as you want and run them in suicide missions. Enough brute force destroys catapults.. .plus... Catapults all the way upto artillery seem to die VERY EASILY.

 

[Optimizer]

Would you consider playing Protective if the First strike promotion was replaced by an Intercept promotion for all relevant units, and some late-game buildings got cheaper?

 

[romelus]

fool my ass. the term is BRAVE. And the fact that these aren't real lives they are disposable so you make as many as you want and run them in suicide missions. Enough brute force destroys catapults.. .plus... Catapults all the way upto artillery seem to die VERY EASILY.

it doesn't take any braveness to send digital men to die, all it takes is mouse clicks. so call it braveness if you need that kind of confidence boost.

you can build 20 units to brute force through a protective capital on a hill, and run 0% research because you are spending all the money on unit maintenance, and let most of your elite units die from crappy odds. or you can actually use 5 catapults and use less units, actually still have some research, and preserve more of your elite units. you tell me who's smart and who's the fool

siege units don't seem to die easily from attacks, they DO die easily if attacked, which is why you are supposed to PROTECT them. they are not supposed to defend your stack, geez!

 

[Chiyochan]

My god, with a defense like this, it's a miracle the United States even managed to conquer the Indians at all . Did Native Americans have machetes to the Firaxis developer's throats? What was Firaxis thinking? Now I'm being forced to handpick all my opponents out of fear Sitting Bull will randomly take a crap on my starting continent.

The Native americans where mostly killed off by disease not fire arms.

all i have to say is sweet, a civ that I can take war mongers on multiplayer to town with.

 

[futurehermit]

protective is overpowered? imo it is the weakest trait in the game (for a human). yes it makes the AI stronger, but that is a good thing.

bring along some catapults and wear down the archers. don't expect to steamroll everyone (especially in BtS!) with just praets.

to be blunt, learn to play the game more effectively.

 

[Spammurabi]

Actually, now that gunpowder units have access to Drill promotions, Protective is a much better trait. I'd say it's almost as good as aggressive.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Nothing wrong with the protective trait. Certainly isn't overpowered, and it's kinda necessary in attempting to balance charismatic and aggressive. There are too many attacking traits, and only one defensive trait. No no no. Protective is a good trait.

Financial is overpowered, Protective is not. If anything, they should boost the trait to make it more appealing to humans - which they kinda did. But Saladin and other protective leaders are still more challenging than aggressive or charismatic or financial leaders with powerful UUs.

And, what, you want the game to facilitate Praet rushes for you? The Praet is totally overpowered, and I would say the Praet rush borders on an exploit. If you rely on that for your games, then you are not challenging yourself enough. Praets are too easy. They are there - like the Incas - to help newer players get into the game. It is certainly no loss to the game that at least one civ (the N Americans) can resist them better.

 

[Ammar]

Hey you're right, catapults still die attacking! Then what's up with the new "maximum damage" concept Firaxis is talking about in the in-game concept section? I know it has to serve some purpose because the "flanking" concept was created to combat it.

Flanking has not been created to combat "maximum damage". Both were intended to force the player to not rely too much on Siege Weapons.

Maximum damage means that Siege Weapons cannot finish off defenders. That makes pure Trebuchet or Cannon armies useless. You have to use some other units. Basically if a Unit is damaged beyond a certain point (percentage based) the Siege Unit cannot harm it anymore. If in combat the enemy unit is brought to that point the Siege Unit will automatically withdraw.

This has actually two effects : Siege Units gain XP much more slowly, since they can't "win" battles. Withdrawing gets only 1 XP. OTH they have a higher chance to survive a battle.

Flanking Siege Units means that you can use your Cavalry to damage the Siege Units of an enemy stack. Cavalry can harm Siege Units even if there are other units in the stack.

 

[kristopherb]

Protective is a good trait when combined with other traits like Agg,char,ind. look at the stats from churchills longbowmen,crossbowmen, when vassalage thoecracy or barracks vassalage/thoecracy(2 promotions)
Cg 1 20%
Cg 2 25%
Cg 3 30%
unit 25%
city 20%
fortify 25%
125% to city defence
13.5 st archers (longbow ,crossbow)ex first strikes
14.1/17.1 st vs melle ex first strikes
Archers (3 st)
7.5 st ex first strikes
I love this combination it allows me to defend cities better with less units and thus gives me more money (less unit upkeep) if need it strong units quickly (drafting) more units to the front line. I,ve made it sound awesome but how often do you defend?.hardly never unless you,ve a backstabbing friend? so its extra insueance agaist monty.
added note
Cg 1 20%
Cg 2 25%
Cg 3 30%
city 20% lv1 city (by the era of the redcoat you've level 2-3 cities)
fortify 25%
100% to city defence
Redcoats 28St on defence 30.5 ~ vs gunpowder
level (how many times the cutlture expand's)

 

[zafyro]

Been playing with tokugawa (agr, prot) only to spam gundpower units with 3 extra habilities (combat I, drill I and city garrison I). I've been fantasizing with using ethiopia and selecting as leader tokugawa and using oromo warriors that would come out with 4 drill promotions, one combat and one city garrison for free.