Ashen Veil research monster

[TravellingHat]

Greetings all

I've a few questions regarding how some buildings and wonders interact for the Ashen Veil, for those of you who know more about it than I do. I envision a city with the following:

Stigmata of the Unborn
Crown of Akharien
Demon Altar (I imagine the research yield is boosted by the Crown of Akharien, but can anyone confirm or deny this?)
Soul Forge (would sacrifices count as "killed" and so give a hammer yield?)
Mokka's Cauldron (would sacrifices count as "killed" and so create a flesh golem?)

I have a particularly evil notion in mind, having a steady stream of sacrifices that yield both beakers and hammers, which are immediately raised as flesh golems (so you don't even lose the unit). This could also be a nice recycling facility for limited units.

On the same subject, would sacrificing a Savant for research trigger the Soul Forge and/or Mokka's Cauldron? Admittedly, the flesh golems wouldn't be that good (delete them to save on support costs) but it would add in even more research and hammers.

This sounds incredibly powerful, although it does require nabbing some pricey wonders. However, given it's potential, I wouldn't be surprised if the sacrifices for the Demon Altar are NOT counted as killed for the purposes of the Soul Forge and Mokka's Cauldron. Can anyone confirm either way?

 

[zxcvbnm]

They are counted as kills, at least in 0.23. They are ritually sacrificed for demons so they die. I also guess that the research yield is improved by libraries and Crown, but can't confirm.

Add xp-boosting buildings to that city so you can sacrifice more experienced units for extra +

Another incredibly powerful combination is to build savants in the city with Prophecy of Ragnarok and use them to hurry tech. Allows you to get the AC up by 1(virtual)/turn, meaning 1.1-0.4 real AC

 

[BCalchet]

Last I checked, research bonuses such as those from the Crown or a Library only applied to actual beaker production of the city, and not sacrifices.

While the soul forge, at least, does consider sacrificed units as killed, remember that the beakers you get is based on the experience of the sacrificed unit - unless you have some serious +experience to new units, you won't be getting all that much research out of it.

(Of course, there are ways to get around this - playing as Flauros and sacrificing new vampires after feasting in a huge city, for example, or going evil after building a large Altar of the Luonnatar for bonus disciple experience.)

 

[BeefontheBone]

Chuck in the Great Library and Catacomb Libralus and you've got a bunch more research, plus lots of GS points. And an academy, natch

 

[loocas]

I just played a game like this. Had Demon's Altar, Soul Forge, and Cauldron, and they did not synthesize. Soul Forge and Cauldron worked when units were killed, but .25 didn't seem to count sacrificing as killing.

I also had Prophecy of Ragnarok, and the AC didn't lower when I sacrificed my prophecy units, and that's probably also due to the difference in sacrificing and killing, if that is the case.

 

[xienwolf]

He was couting on AC staying up when you sacrafice a unit. As a cheap way to bump the AC way up, no risk of it being knocked back down, and no upkeep for a ton of units you can't put to good use.

 

[daladinn]

what your describing is an old tactic that is done often with the calabim. you need to keep in mind that 1 of them work on level^2 and the other on xp. so the more you invest into a unit the more you get back.

the basic version of this is with the calabim. get a HUGE city and munch it down for the xp , then sac the guy for enough hammers to make a new one ....and get the bonus research.

the more advanced and much MUCH more powerful version is with the elohim. when you understand how your really gonna laugh at the power of the elohim being evil.

if you looking for a research monster and the AV though. you really need to look into what the great lighthouse , the stigmata , and the crown all do together. then add the twisted spire into your calculations.

take care , see ya soon.

 

[TravellingHat]

Well, I've had a bit of a play, and it can be a challenge to bag all the wonders in the right place. Even beelining Corruption, I have seen both the Great Library and the Catacomb nabbed, although I have managed to get them both, but risking some early vulnerabilities. I guess this would depend on what civs you're up against, and some jammy goody huts can certainly help (I seem to have popped mysticism a few times from huts).

However, and this is not quite on topic, I've noticed that under AV my units have no option to wait and heal in enemy territory. I never had that with OO. Mind you, in an Amurites OO game the other day it happened again. Is this to do with the AC? If so, my founding the AV does it just push the AC up enough? In the Amurites example, the AC was nudge below 50, but I've had the same trying out the AV when the AC must have been considerably lower. Odd.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

You mean the relinquery essentially increasing the power of this tactic by 50% + 25% + ... (ok probably around 80%), I presume. What's even better is if you built a few Alters of Luonnotars first before switching to AV, then start building monks in every city with high xp. I should try that. *shudders*.

As for the Calabim... for the last time, AC and vampires don't mix well.

 

[Grillick]

I'm pretty sure Demon units don't have a natural heal rate. They need March or Combat V or a Medic before they heal in enemy territory.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

As for the Calabim... for the last time, AC and vampires don't mix well.

Yes being able to grow a city to size 45 or 50 with sacrifice the weak is nice, but the AC can be an issue

The hardest think when i played my evil AV worshiping Calabim empire was to keep the AC under control. Well, i finally managed to build the tower of mastery (damn Vassal who betrayed me at the same time i finally conquered the last free civ) when counter was at 86, two more points and i would have to fight the avatar, horsemen were no issue with my ultra powerful anti demon vampires.
Of course, i made sure to build the prophecy myself in my most economical city (one that never built a single unit after that) and never summoned some of the most powerful demons, but who needs eidolons when you can have level 15 vampires in just a few feast turns.
However, in this game i made sure never to summon hyborem (easy as i was the only veil worshiper in the world) cause i didn't wanted my food resources be converted into snake pillars (ok, the graphic is great but the improvement sucks IMO)