Ashkenazi Genes pandora

boogaboo

Josef Popper 4ever
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Well, I was just about to go to sleep when I read yet another gene/intelligence article about Ashkenazi Jews (Yes, I'm one of them)...

This is borderline racism..
However, it may be part of the truth, thus opening a human pandora box of ethnicities and genes.. and natural selection..
What do you think??

Here's 3 nice links (from better to worse):
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03gene.html
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001350.html
http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/mac.htm

The first link is "hard to find" (use google on the topic) and the most recent so here it is:
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"A team of scientists at the University of Utah has proposed that the unusual pattern of genetic diseases seen among Jews of central or northern European origin, or Ashkenazim, is the result of natural selection for enhanced intellectual ability.

Skip to next paragraph

Intelligence and GeneticsThe selective force was the restriction of Ashkenazim in medieval Europe to occupations that required more than usual mental agility, the researchers say in a paper that has been accepted by the Journal of Biosocial Science, published by Cambridge University Press in England.

The hypothesis advanced by the Utah researchers has drawn a mixed reaction among scientists, some of whom dismissed it as extremely implausible, while others said they had made an interesting case, although one liable to raise many hackles.

"It would be hard to overstate how politically incorrect this paper is," said Steven Pinker, a cognitive scientist at Harvard, noting that it argues for an inherited difference in intelligence between groups. Still, he said, "it's certainly a thorough and well-argued paper, not one that can easily be dismissed outright."

"Absolutely anything in human biology that is interesting is going to be controversial," said one of the report's authors, Dr. Henry Harpending, an anthropologist and a member of the National Academy of Sciences.

He and two colleagues at the University of Utah, Gregory Cochran and Jason Hardy, see the pattern of genetic disease among the Ashkenazi Jewish population as reminiscent of blood disorders like sickle cell anemia that occur in populations exposed to malaria, a disease that is only 5,000 years old.

In both cases, the Utah researchers argue, evolution has had to counter a sudden threat by favoring any mutation that protected against it, whatever the side effects. Ashkenazic diseases like Tay-Sachs, they say, are a side effect of genes that promote intelligence.

The explanation that the Ashkenazic disease genes must have some hidden value has long been accepted by other researchers, but no one could find a convincing infectious disease or other threat to which the Ashkenazic genetic ailments might confer protection.

A second suggestion, wrote Dr. Jared Diamond of the University of California, Los Angeles, in a 1994 article, "is selection in Jews for the intelligence putatively required to survive recurrent persecution, and also to make a living by commerce, because Jews were barred from the agricultural jobs available to the non-Jewish population."

The Utah researchers have built on this idea, arguing that for some 900 years Jews in Europe were restricted to managerial occupations, which were intellectually demanding, that those who were more successful also left more offspring, and that there was time in this period for the intelligence of the Ashkenazi population as a whole to become appreciably enhanced.

But the Utah researchers' analysis comes at a time when some geneticists have suggested natural selection is not the reason for the Ashkenazic diseases after all. Two years ago, Dr. Neil Risch, a geneticist now at the University of California, San Francisco, proposed a different genetic mechanism known as a founder effect, which occurs when a population is reduced for a time.

He found that all the Ashkenazic diseases had similar properties, including having arisen within the last 1,100 years. Therefore they had all arisen through the same cause, he argued, which must be founder effects, because it was unlikely that all could be due to natural selection. Last year, Dr. Montgomery Slatkin of the University of California, Berkeley, came to much the same conclusion for different reasons.

The Utah team agrees with Dr. Risch that the diseases all arose in historical times from the same cause but say natural selection is more likely because none of the non-disease Ashkenazic genes they tested showed any sign of a founder effect. They say the clustering of four of the diseases in the same biochemical pathway could only have arisen under the influence of natural selection, and calculate that the odds of a founder effect producing such a cluster are vanishingly low. "
 
As somebody who's at least 1/8 Ashkenazi, reading this certainly was an ego boost.
 
I read about this on the economist. Funky stuff. Although apparantly, this also results in some increased liklihood of certain neurological diseases for Ashkenazim
 
Oh, and there's something similar going on in Silicon Valley right now. In the 90's, companies were taking the most mathematically gifted of both genders and putting them near each other to work as programers. The result? Lots of autistic children -- we learned that mathematic genius is, to simplify things slightly, caused by a lesser dose of what causes autism.
 
SeleucusNicator said:
Oh, and there's something similar going on in Silicon Valley right now. In the 90's, companies were taking the most mathematically gifted of both genders and putting them near each other to work as programers. The result? Lots of autistic children -- we learned that mathematic genius is, to simplify things slightly, caused by a lesser dose of what causes autism.

Bingo, right on the money.
 
boogaboo said:
Well, I was just about to go to sleep when I read yet another gene/intelligence article about Ashkenazi Jews (Yes, I'm one of them)...

This is borderline racism..
However, it may be part of the truth, thus opening a human pandora box of ethnicities and genes.. and natural selection..
What do you think??

You quote this as if it's new, but this stuff's been thrown around for years.

I don't know why you consider it racist to blame evolution for Jewish intelligence, unless you have some aversion to evolution.

In any case, the theory doesn't hold very well. Even though it is true that European Jews had restricted professions, this doesn't mean that intelligent Jews were genetically selected. You'd have to prove that Jews who did not become financiers failed to reproduce more often than those who did. I find that hard to believe.

I find it more convincing that, because of the job restrictions, a culture of wanting to attain those same jobs emerged, such that each generation was encouraged to do so.

Keep in mind I can say all these things because I'm Jewish. ;)
 
Sobieski II said:
I read about this on the economist. Funky stuff. Although apparantly, this also results in some increased liklihood of certain neurological diseases for Ashkenazim

Yep, well, I'm not sure the problems are "neurological".. more like genetic..
From my grand parents downwards, all 3 males (me and 2 cousins) have psychiatric problems... I have general anxiety disorder, another had a psychotic "attack" and some degree of anxiety, and the third has depression..
We are all treated, but I'm the only math man (not genius yet..).
Noone knows if this has a specific gene attributed, but I'd rather give this disease to some insect than to pass it on..

Nanocyborgasm said:
I find it more convincing that, because of the job restrictions, a culture of wanting to attain those same jobs emerged, such that each generation was encouraged to do so.

That's exactly it - it was hard enough to stay Jewish and keep learning and working in specific jobs - those who saw it as too difficult could just move on to change religion, marry some European and forget they were ever jews.
The ones who stayed jews were constantly interbred with their local jewish communities, enhancing some traits.
 
I posted these thoughts/questions in a thread that I made about this, not knowing that this one already existed. I think that these ideas are worth further discussion.

I thought this article brought up some interesting points, and it takes courage to reasearch and publish on taboo suspects like this. But I have some concerns:

1. The article states, somewhat reasonably, that people with higher class jobs in the middle ages raised more children to reproductive age. I'm somewhat skeptical, but since the article says they have sources I will grant them that. Even so, weren't the majority of Ashkenazi's poor shtetl people? I thought the Jewish intelligensia in Poland & elsewhere were descended from Sephardic refugees from Spain.
2. I know there are other populations that have a high incidence of Tay-Sachs, like the Pennsylvania Dutch. What do IQ tests of those groups show?
3. If the link between carrying one allele for these diseases and intelligence is demonstrated, and is averaged to be 5 points, is that really a great distance in IQ? Would the 12-15 point difference be more attributable to cultural factors?
4. Most Jews lack even one allele for these diseases. How does this explain the great statistical difference if there is only a minority affected? Did the families of great Jewish geniuses have high incidence of Tay-Sachs, Neumann-Pick, etc.?
 
The ecnomist article has a lot more information:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=120663

If anyone knows more about the infection claim, please let me know in another thread or PM (I don't want to derail this one).

In the economist article it speaks of "accidental eugenics." In China they are doing purposeful eugenics by sterlization people believed to likely have some undesirable genes. So given time, the Chinese IQ will catch up to the Ashk. Jewish IQ. The IQ of a nation/race could vary based on who gets to be king in that nation. If the king happens to be really smart and has thousands and thousands of wives/mistresses then he'll spread his smart genes. If the nation gets a dumb guy for king, he'll spread his dumb genes. So a lot of the racial differences in IQ probably just depend on good luck/bad luck factors like that. Also if a race are all descended more or less from an original small tribe, then the genes that that small tribe had will get passed down. Also if a race/nation gets conquered and the invader decides to kill all the intellectual classes to reduce resistence, then lots of smart genes will get depleted. So it's entirely expected that there will be racial differences in IQ. It'd take a monster of a miracle for there not to be.
 
The infection theory sounds crappy.. genes are the real focus in any case, even if some infection caused some mutations.. :crazyeye:
 
I always thought it had something to do with the fact that, since for centuries they were in small, isolated communities, the gene pool became a little restricted.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
I always thought it had something to do with the fact that, since for centuries they were in small, isolated communities, the gene pool became a little restricted.

They were in communities, but they weren't always SO small as to cause such mutations, although I guess probability for marrying a relative was higher than in other nations.

Many also kept registry of their relatives.
I have some names of ancestors who were born before 1850..
I would support the "natural selection" via prosecution in this case ;)
 
Thats great I wish I had that. My knowledge of my family tree only goes as far back as the late 1800's.
 
boogaboo said:
They were in communities, but they weren't always SO small as to cause such mutations, although I guess probability for marrying a relative was higher than in other nations.

You know, maybe, it was their marrying relatives that caused the higher IQ. Marrying relatives probably causes both a disproportionate number of very dumb kids and very smart kids. The very dumb kids genes die out because they don't marry as often and the very smart kids genes spread more. So it might not have to do with peresecution at all but just with lots of marrying relatives.
 
Interesting article, I was wondering the opposite the other day, that in nations that are melting pots (such as America to some extent) that interbreeding between far-flung races and communities might recover lost genetic information. Now America is too young in my opinion for this to have much effect across the whole population as far as intelligence is concerned, but this process has certainly been reflected in our dashing good looks.


cierdan: I doubt Jews who wanted to remain part of a community would marry close relatives as it is forbidden in the Torah... well, eventually it is.
 
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