Selecting One's Children: Genetics & Eugenics

[Stew Pid]

This one shocked me, even made me feel like the character in the movie "They Live" where he puts on the glasses and is awoken to the truth. Warning... Its very, dark and depressing and may lead you down a rabbit hole, reader discretion is advised. The implications of what I'm about to reveal are a reinforced pattern that nearly every society either ignores or tries to hide, and it actually has many societal implications still affecting human civilization globally to this day.

In sperm banks, donors' sperm is constantly being scrutinized, reduced down to base genes and the parent's attributes. The same thing would probably happen to eggs banks but they yield such a higher failure rate and cost not to mention the health rates only get worse with age, so it is hardly ever practiced as such. Back to the matter of donor sperm, the banks are actively selecting for sperm that's come from donors who have a specific race, height, intelligence, athleticism, eye color, pigment and etc. The reasoning for this is not even from a medical standpoint, it goes beyond actively denying donors who may have genetic diseases and or predisposed to severe health problems. This happens so often that some sperm banks actively enforce a height requirement, race requirement, eye color requirement, etc. They will openly reject donors who do not meet these standards, other sperm banks may be more discrete, they may receive a donor's "inferior" sperm and simply discard it while no one is paying attention. All of is done globally by the way, from Brazilian sperms banks to ones in Africa, Europe, Asia, everywhere. All are making an attempt to breed only humans that fit a singular common ideal of genetics and attributes. Consider this selection process of sperm is reinforced by stereotypical biases, apathy and delusional hypergamy. Do not fall for the trap in thinking that these banks' purpose is altruistic in nature.

With regard to how sperm is vetted, the pattern of rational behind such methods is also recognized influencing other decisions of daily life but never sees the light of day in the mainstream cycle of media, debate, or conscience. Among them, are grandiose and hotbed topics fit for another day, perhaps even another thread.

If you do not believe me, you can look it up yourself about from simple things like 5.8 ft minimum height requirement listed on a Sperm Bank's web site and firsthand reports about donors being rejected.

 

[Birdjaguar]

This one shocked me, even made me feel like the character in the movie "They Live" where he puts on the glasses and is awoken to the truth. Warning... Its very, dark and depressing and may lead you down a rabbit hole, reader discretion is advised. The implications of what I'm about to reveal are a reinforced pattern that nearly every society either ignores or tries to hide, and it actually has many societal implications still affecting human civilization globally to this day.

In sperm banks, donors' sperm is constantly being scrutinized, reduced down to base genes and the parent's attributes. The same thing would probably happen to eggs banks but they yield such a higher failure rate and cost not to mention the health rates only get worse with age, so it is hardly ever practiced as such. Back to the matter of donor sperm, the banks are actively selecting for sperm that's come from donors who have a specific race, height, intelligence, athleticism, eye color, pigment and etc. The reasoning for this is not even from a medical standpoint, it goes beyond actively denying donors who may have genetic diseases and or predisposed to severe health problems. This happens so often that some sperm banks actively enforce a height requirement, race requirement, eye color requirement, etc. They will openly reject donors who do not meet these standards, other sperm banks may be more discrete, they may receive a donor's "inferior" sperm and simply discard it while no one is paying attention. All of is done globally by the way, from Brazilian sperms banks to ones in Africa, Europe, Asia, everywhere. All are making an attempt to breed only humans that fit a singular common ideal of genetics and attributes. Consider this selection process of sperm is reinforced by stereotypical biases, apathy and delusional hypergamy. Do not fall for the trap in thinking that these banks' purpose is altruistic in nature.

With regard to how sperm is vetted, the pattern of rational behind such methods is also recognized influencing other decisions of daily life but never sees the light of day in the mainstream cycle of media, debate, or conscience. Among them, are grandiose and hotbed topics fit for another day, perhaps even another thread.

If you do not believe me, you can look it up yourself about from simple things like 5.8 ft minimum height requirement listed on a Sperm Bank's web site and firsthand reports about donors being rejected.

They are selling a product to customers who are fussy about what they want to buy. Sperm is cheap and easily obtained; there is no reason not to be picky. The next question is how many babies are born using sperm banks as a percent of all babies born?

 

[Samson]

What Bird said, but also that article it lying to you:

The same thing would probably happen to eggs banks but they yield such a higher failure rate and cost not to mention the health rates only get worse with age, so it is hardly ever practiced as such

The reason why it is not done with eggs is not because of the failure rate, it is the fact that the test kills the egg and they are very valuable.

What do you think are the implications?

 

[Comrade Ceasefire]

What Bird said, but also that article it lying to you:

The reason why it is not done with eggs is not because of the failure rate, it is the fact that the test kills the egg and they are very valuable.

What do you think are the implications?

You can't make people without breaking eggs?

 

[Samson]

I will say that the whole field of modern reproductive medicine does open a lot of moral/ethical dilemmas that are not really being confronted by modern society.

The sort of technologies that really challenge my moral principles are:

Preimplantation genetic testing today allows us to avoid having children with some serious genetic defects, such as Down syndrome. This taken to the extreme eliminates a group of people based on their genetics (trisomy 21). That sounds a little like genocide, but the alternative is to force people to carry unwanted children that will die before them.

Germ line gene editing could allow all sorts of things. These range from "fixing" lethal genetic problems that would otherwise be aborted to whatever dystopian genetic elite/super soldier nightmare is your favourate. We are really close to this, and we are not discussing it.

Cloning otherwise infertile people asks questions. I am not sure what the real issues are, from wealth disparity in reproductive capacity to the health effect of not having the meiotic event, but I am sure there are some issues there.

These are all compounded by the fact that people are very highly motivated in this area, and if a particular technique is available in one country then it can be expected that anyone who would benefit from it and can afford it is likely to go there for treatment.

 

[Kyriakos]

Imo it is inevitable to get to a point where genetically enabled ills are reduced or otherwise taken care of with embryo/cloning based personal treatment. But hopefully it won't be limited to the very rich.
We simply need to live for longer, and be healthier.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I will say that the whole field of modern reproductive medicine does open a lot of moral/ethical dilemmas that are not really being confronted by modern society.

The sort of technologies that really challenge my moral principles are:

Preimplantation genetic testing today allows us to avoid having children with some serious genetic defects, such as Down syndrome. This taken to the extreme eliminates a group of people based on their genetics (trisomy 21). That sounds a little like genocide, but the alternative is to force people to carry unwanted children that will die before them.

Germ line gene editing could allow all sorts of things. These range from "fixing" lethal genetic problems that would otherwise be aborted to whatever dystopian genetic elite/super soldier nightmare is your favourate. We are really close to this, and we are not discussing it.

Cloning otherwise infertile people asks questions. I am not sure what the real issues are, from wealth disparity in reproductive capacity to the health effect of not having the meiotic event, but I am sure there are some issues there.

These are all compounded by the fact that people are very highly motivated in this area, and if a particular technique is available in one country then it can be expected that anyone who would benefit from it and can afford it is likely to go there for treatment.

I'm reminded of Robert Silverberg's novel Up the Line and the part of the story that deals with gene editing.

The main character, Jud Elliot, becomes friends with some people who work in a "helix parlor". The woman informs him that she had to study hard for that job - there's a six-month training course to learn how to edit genes, apparently.

There are some standards, of course. They assume it's better to be tall than short, have hair instead of not having hair, and have the usual number of limbs and appendages. They won't design any babies that fall outside this list of standards and only allow limited "deviations." But within that, people are free to select the sex, skin color, eye color, hair color, height, predisposition for certain skills, and so on. Genes that lead to harmful medical conditions and diseases are simply eliminated or "edited."

Jud states that the plainest member of the tour group he's escorting back in time is so much better-looking than most of the people they encounter in the past, with its unedited people (his job is escorting tourists into the past to witness various historical events and experience a little of the daily life of whatever time and place they're in). He further states that his generation will be the last in which people aren't gene-edited as a matter of course (the year is 2059).

Silverberg wrote this novel in the 1960s (published in 1969). I first read it in 1981. It's been optioned (not clear if for a movie or miniseries), but of course that's no guarantee it'll be made or how faithful an adaptation it would be. Some things would have to change, because readers of the late '60s accepted some things that modern audiences would not.

It's one of my favorite books to re-read, because of the time travel aspect. But it's also disturbing in the casual way it talks about gene-editing, as though nature itself is no longer good enough.

Imo it is inevitable to get to a point where genetically enabled ills are reduced or otherwise taken care of with embryo/cloning based personal treatment. But hopefully it won't be limited to the very rich.
We simply need to live for longer, and be healthier.

So, GATTACA would be okay?

I'll admit that it would have been great if certain things had been edited out of my family's genetic heritage. Cancer, for instance. I'm at the age now where if I'm going to be yet another statistic on the family tree, it's likely to happen.

But in GATTACA, people's rights and social acceptability were determined by genetics. People based friendship and intimacy not on the other person's personality and actions, but on their genetics. Only perfect people were acceptable. Everyone else got dregs.

That doesn't sound like an appealing society to live in.

 

[Kyriakos]

I like to imagine that cures will be available for all, as a result, but since we are also talking about pre-birth, intervention may happen there? In a utopic future, of course.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

from simple things like 5.8 ft minimum height requirement

Who can blame them? If you're below 5'8 you might as well be invisible

 

[Kyriakos]

Not at all, I am 5'7.7 (1.72 metres) and perfectly visible ^^
Being tall just means that things around you are less comfortable

I'd actually be ok with having even less height, though it may be related to myself being a lot taller than others my age in the very start of elementary school - or rather in preschool -, which was making me sad. By 6-7 I likely had close to the average height in the class, and then my introverted evil arc started.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

being extremely tall in the start of elementary school - or in preschool -, which was making me sad.

Some sort of consolation to know that's a thing too

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I am 5'77

5 feet, 77 inches?!



At 12 inches/foot, by my math, that makes you 11 feet, 5 inches tall!

 

[Kyriakos]

Sorry, it's the ridiculous system of having two bases for a single measurement. 5 feet, 7.7 inches

 

[Stew Pid]

They are selling a product to customers who are fussy about what they want to buy. Sperm is cheap and easily obtained; there is no reason not to be picky. The next question is how many babies are born using sperm banks as a percent of all babies born?

They only record it per country and even then, its "estimates" due to anonymity, privacy concerns, regulations, and reporting practices between for example Asian countries versus European countries might vary in not actual reporting sperm collections or publishing data about donation births. Sperm imported from other countries may also not count to be recorded for donation births, Belgium used this as a work around on regulations of local donors being limited to how much they can donate and has become a fertility destination in the past.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So nobody really knows? Choosing sperm is kinda like buying a car: there are lots of makes, models, brands, accessories and colors.

 

[Samson]

So nobody really knows? Choosing sperm is kinda like buying a car: there are lots of makes, models, brands, accessories and colors.

That sounds like a little more variation in sperm morphology than is generally recognised...

 

[Birdjaguar]

That sounds like a little more variation in sperm morphology than is generally recognised...

Maybe, but men do seem to come in many different shapes, sizes, colors, capabilities, and healthiness and sperm is cheap and available. Why not choose carefully if you are going to choose at all?

 

[Stew Pid]

What Bird said, but also that article it lying to you:

The reason why it is not done with eggs is not because of the failure rate, it is the fact that the test kills the egg and they are very valuable.

What do you think are the implications?

Not every test results in egg destruction, the technology to improve viability is only getting better and countries that have earned the "fertility tourism" trend, typical allocate more resources towards reproductive treatment with lower costs. Issues that will arise/are already here issues of class conflict, racial tension, identity crisis, family dysfunction and more. What will happen when a child discovers that they are a product, a donation from a mysterious parent that they have no relation with as a result of reducing someone down to genes and racial traits that you pick out of a catalogue?

 

[Samson]

Not every test results in egg destruction

What test does not? You can test the mother, but that does not really answer all the questions.

 

[Stew Pid]

What's breadtube and what do you love to hate and what did you learn?


Sounds like every girls tinder profile already

Chicks be fussy bro, this isnt groundbreaking stuff, female mammals be practicing eugenics on the daily. Males on the other hand usually shoot first ask questions later.

Many people and I mean many do not know this. The messages constantly maintained into modern society is that everyone is equal on regards to race, sex, religion, genes and creed. This rule of thumb is especially enforced everywhere in public, and I mean everywhere. As I was alluding to in the end of my post is the scale of practicing eugenics is not exclusive to the process of reproduction. It is influencing, jobs, housing, food, politics, wars, literature, the list goes on still to this day. In theory it is supposed to be banned right? You're not supposed to use this as a filtering process for anything when it comes to human life in this modernized world?