At what point do you "pull the plug" on a game

[gengwall]

I've been playing at Diety level for a few months now. I've won twice but most games end up in a WW1 like trench warfare stalemate and I just quit and start over. I mostly play for conquest. At any rate, at what point in a game do you hit the "writings on the wall" stage? I find I go much further in these games than I probably should or need to before I give up. If I could identify early on that it's hopeless, I could save myself a lot of time and temper, plus I'd get more games and experience under my belt in a given time frame.

More on my approach/experiences

I am usually behind in the tech race for a long time but catch up in the end. I am usually 1st or 2nd on "largest" and Upper half on "most powerful".

I usually give up when flight is discovered or if there is a civ that is huge and It's nearing 1900. When ever I've persisted beyond this point it ends up being a slug fest to gain even a little ground.

The two games I've won we hardly got past espionage and tactics and it was very clear I was going to prevail (even though both games were resolved in the 1900's).

I try to expand fast but sometimes get bottled up. I haven't been able to get very far unless I have a good swath of territory on a reasonably large continent that I can expand into.

I generally follow a "theism" path intil monotheism, then go for democracy which gives me ultimate governmental flexibility. I usually get Pyramids, Mikes, and Statue of Liberty. I go for Great wall and/or Great Library sometimes but I have shied away from GL lately. I also sometimes go for Leonardos or Suns depending on if I can get them easy and I can spare the production.

I can't ever seem to get a SSC going but I can usually crank out a lot of settlers and military units. But finding out where everyone is has been a pain. That is where I typically get messed up. I spend up until mid 1800's just trying to get everyone on my continent wiped or bottled up and then I find there is an even bigger continent that someone else has had free reign in.

I REALLY don't get trade. It seems I never have time for it as I'm fighting from about 1200 on with at least one AI and often more. Between funding the war machine and building up my military I can't seem to ever find the time for trade.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

The best advice I can give you is to participate in GOTMs. We all develop a gaming style and keep repeating it over and over again. You learn a lot by participating in a comparison game and reading about how other people played the exact same game.

Check out the Ci2 GOTM forum. GOTM59 just got started.

 

[Peaster]

I try to expand fast but sometimes get bottled up. I haven't been able to get very far unless I have a good swath of territory on a reasonably large continent that I can expand into.

Early expansion is the key. I want to own half the world's cities by 1AD (by using my production mostly for new settlers). That's about 20 cities. Then conquest is pretty easy. If I get bottled up on a small island, I build boats to expand off of it. Or if the problem is another civ, I wipe them out. Since we are talking about BC years, a squad of 3 or 4 vet elephants hitting an AI city in the same turn will almost always succeed.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster knows very well what he is talking about. He is our current champion for early conquests.

The other thing you can do is to contain your rivals and build a space ship. But containment only works if you have a significant tech lead.

 

[camelman]

yeah i like to go for early wars - fighting with tanks and planes just isn't as fun for me. on the subject of pulling the plug though - how many people have continued to play the game after the scoring period. I only ever did this once, when i 1st started playing civ2 about 8 years ago. Does anyone know what year the game would go upto if you just carried on playing or would it continue forever??

 

[Ace]

No idea how high the game will keep track of years if you continue playing, but there does not seem to be much point in playing after the score stops being counted.

If I don't "play out" a game, its usually one of two reasons: 1) I get a very bad map start and just scrap it after a few turns of exploriation, or 2) I get sidetracked from a game for a while and just do not go back to it.

 

[stocktracker]

I usually quit when I have too many cities to manage, or I get bored. I hate managing over 100 cities, it takes too much effort for me to keep track of them all. And if I do have that many cities, the game is won for me anyways.

 

[Andu Indorin]

You might also consider reading the threads listed in the Civ II Links page (top of Civ II General Discussions Forum), as well as review Elephant's Tips and Tricks for the New (and Old) player found in this forum.

I remember having one of my early games bog down in "trench warfare" while I was still learning the ins and outs of Civ II many years ago. ... As for trade, trade early, trade often, trade forever.

 

[Tabadi]

I usually play one of two types of game: Earliest landing on AC, or personal highest score at 1500AD (after that it gets a bit boring).

Playing Deity + 7 Civs, I usually get well in front of the pack by 1AD in both tech advances & number of cities. From there on it's just a matter of controlling the other civs while pushing forward for a winning score.

My strategy is:
* rapid early expansion & exploration using Horsemen, Chariots or Diplomats
* kill off any small & weak civs on the same continent, make contact with civs on other continents
* aim for Monarchy ASAP, avoid collecting other techs that do not lead to Monarchy
* build Hanging Gardens to keep the plebs happy in far-flung cities
* build Pyramids for quicker population growth (I might revise this in light of info gained from other forums), use Caravans to build Wonders & expand population in the larger cities
* continue to build new cities until they start to become unmanageable, then use Settlers to add roads, mines, irrigation, etc
* aim for Democracy ASAP, making sure to get Leonardo's Workshop along the way (usually I have Democracy by 500BC)
* avoid getting Feudalism so that the cities can continue to build Warriors & not forced to go to Pikemen
* build Statue of Liberty and switch to Fundamentalism - this allows building lots of units in all cities & also accumulate gold reserves if needed - use Settlers to build lots & lots of cities
* use Diplomats to convert foreign cities rather than attack with troops - defend my cities by bribing foreign troops
* by 1AD I will typically have 80-100 cities & have other civs reduced to a handful of cities each
* avoid getting Gunpowder until after Railroad - gives plenty of time to accumulate lots of Warriors
* build Darwin's Voyage & collect Gunpowder & Explosives with the +2 techs - keep building Warriors in around half of the cities & disband the upgraded Musketeers in some of the other half to quickly build city improvements
* aim for Conscription so that the Warriors (cost 10 shields) will ultimately become Riflemen (disband value 20 shields)
* use Engineers to connect all cities with railroads
* at some point, new cities can build units without having to support them (ie. support = "NON") - at this stage build a scattering of cities & move units to these to become unsupported
* switch to Democracy, crank up Science, & go for broke on tech advances
* build lots of Freight, move them to the NON-support cities & then to other cities to increase population

By this stage, there is little interaction with other civs as they are reduced to a few cities struggling to survive (I try not to wipe them out altogether, unless they are getting in the way). Each turn can take quite a while (15-20 minutes) because of the number of units being built & moved, so unless I am aiming for a personal best score I might abandon the game at this stage. Otherwise, press on with increasing population, tech advances & building Wonders.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

A few thoughts, some of which have been said already.

If you are getting into "trench warfare" type situations, you're not fighting wars effectively. In general, in any era, Offensive units have the advantage in this game, so it pays to be aggressive. Fight your wars with only the most powerful weaponry. When you get to modern times, don't fight with tanks, fight with Howitzers or even artillery before that. The increase in firepower is tremendous. And concentrate your forces - don't fight in wide swaths. Set a goal of what you want to conquer at one time (e.g., 1 particular city, a particular defensible area, a Beachhead city, a capital,, an entire civ) If possible do some reconnaisance (Spies!) so you know what you're up against. Assemble a major force that you are confident will be able to defeat the enemy in your goal area, and still be able to hold it just long enough for you to consolidate forces. Once you're ready, attack. Don't spread youself so thin that you can't hold your territory. Then regroup, and do it again. Use concentrated, overwhelming force. And stay on the offensive. If you're not ready to go on the offensive, just do the minimum required to hold a defensive front against your enemy. Let him throw away resources in uncoordinated attacks against a decent defensive position.

Don't let wars drag on. If it looks like you're in a stalemate, try to negotiate an end to hostilities until you can rebuild an advantage. If you can capture one city, the AI tends to be very reasonable for a while especially if you keep your rep spotless.

Your wonder choices indicate a focus on military in the early-mid game (Wall, Sun, Leo, Statue for "governmental flexibility" i.e., fundy ). This is when you should focus on things enhancing trade and science. Once you have a tech lead, you don't need military wonders. Great wall indicates a reliance on defensive units - as I implied above, the best defense is a good offense. I'm on record multiple times discussing the evils of the GL, because it exacerbates the problem of poor focus. Make an SSC a priority, and by that, I mean make its techs a priority. And make building Camels for the wonders a priority. That means you focus on Bronze, Trade, Astro, Medicine and Gravity. (picking up things like mono/mikes along the way too), and you have most of the cities around your chosen SSC devoted to camels so you can rush the wonders when you get the techs. Don't wander all over the tech tree if you can help it. Your SSC site doesn't have to be perfect. As long as it doesn't have much "no trade without engineers" terrain (hills, mountains, jungle, swamp) it can be a decent site. To get an idea of how the SSC really works, I recommend reading up about OCC and trying one or two. It really gets you to focus and think about "what is important to me and what isn't". Then apply what you learn to your other games.

Embrace Trade. Take the time to deliver goods to demanded cities at long distances. The bonuses will vault you way ahead in science, and the gold can be used to rushbuild things. Even without bonuses, the trade routes are often the difference between mediocre cities and a powerhouse cities. Just remember you need to make it a priority.

To learn more about the world early on, build Marco Polo when you get Trade, then use it. Talk to your neighbors often, get them happy, and exchange maps with them to find out where they are and learn about the world. Exchange techs with them. It's OK to give away techs to the AIs sometimes, especially if they are distant. With the Embassy, you can act as a tech hub, trading between different civs and getting the best of what they have all researched so in the end you get ahead of all of them. Just remember to trade for techs that further YOUR goals, not crap like warrior code or feudalism. Especially if you're playing Classic 2.4.2, get alliances early. Remember that even though the AI is ultimately your rival, you don't have to treat them like a sworn enemy at all times. Work collaboratively and peacefully with them when it is to your advantage (then crush them later).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

usually I have Democracy by 500BC

Did you mean AD? 500BC is awful early for Democracy on Deity.

at some point, new cities can build units without having to support them (ie. support = "NON") - at this stage build a scattering of cities & move units to these to become unsupported

I have never heard of that. Care to elaborate under what circumstances this happens?

 

[ElephantU]

The times I've seen "trench warfare" have been when the human player has set up lines of defensive military units to protect a "frontier". The AI then gets attracted to them and sends waves of assault units (Catapults/Cannons) who die before they can attack. The better response is for the human to pull his defense forces back into the cities and disband them for offensive units. Keep a few defenders on "death trap" sites that lie along the common lines of approach (assuming it's not time yet to take the other civ completely out). A fortification on a mountain works the best. Keep a few offensive units (Elephants/Crusaders) in the border cities to sally forth when attackers get too close. This also helps to keep city unrest down when you are in Republic or Democracy.

I have seen Democracy before AD1, if you bypass other techs that are often more useful. Sounds like Tabadi is following a different path - Eng-Inv-Dem rather than Eng-San-ThG or other variants. His Wonders are HG-Pyr-LW-SoL, where you might be going MPE-HG-Col/Cop(for SSC)-MC-ShT-INC. Prioritizing Sanitation to grow the SSC early can derail the "soft Fundy" approach others take.

A "fast" Democracy:
Alp-CoL-Wri-Hor-Lit-REP-Bro-Whe-Cur-TRA-Ban-Mas-Cst-Eng-Inv-DEM
(16 rounds - Note that Cer, Pot and Map were bypassed, and he did mention early Monarchy and Hanging Gardens...)
More likely:
Hor-Cer-Alp-CoL-MON-Wri-Bro-Cur-POT-Tra-Lit-Rep-Ban-Whe-Mas-Cst-Eng-Inv-DEM
(19 rounds - no PT, Phi, MT, Ast or other diversions)

 

[Tabadi]

Ali Ardavan - Democracy at 500BC! If I don't have Democracy by 1AD I cancel the game because I know I will not get a PB. You need to be selective in your tech swaps with other civs - don't take any advances that do not lead to Democracy. Also, around 1000BC to 500BC a lot of goody huts will give you tech advances rather than gold or mercenaries, so go out and search for them with 2MP units (horsemen, diplomats).

NON-support cities. At some stage new cities can produce a unit without having to support them. I don't know how or why these come into being, but you need a large population and lots of cities. By moving an existing unit into those cities and making it their home city, that unit switches to NON support, which is great for Democracy because you can have a large army and lots of Settlers / Engineers without needing to support them with shields in their home city. Also, any Freight carrying food will not decrease food production from the home city - a good way to increase population.

 

[Tabadi]

Re: NON-support cities. I just checked with my saved games and it appears that these start to appear at around city #120. So you need to control a large land mass to be able to build that many.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

NON-support cities. At some stage new cities can produce a unit without having to support them. I don't know how or why these come into being, but you need a large population and lots of cities. By moving an existing unit into those cities and making it their home city, that unit switches to NON support, which is great for Democracy because you can have a large army and lots of Settlers / Engineers without needing to support them with shields in their home city. Also, any Freight carrying food will not decrease food production from the home city - a good way to increase population.

Have you patched your install? It's been a long time, so I can't find a reference, but that rings a bell as a bug that I think was addressed in one of the patches or something like that.

I am pretty sure that is not something that is 'normal' game play.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Aha! I found it. I knew I had read it somewhere.

In the PATCH.TXT for the 2.4.2 Classic Patch (look at the civfanatics Civ2 Downloads page under "Patches/Updates") is the following under the heading "Vversion[sic] 1.07 changes":

* Corrected problem where new units were created with "NONE" as
home after a large number of cities had been built.

If it was fixed in 2.4.2, it should have been propogated through to later versions as well. It sounds like your using an unpatched version of the Classic Civ 2.

 

[The Judge]

I remember having one of my early games bog down in "trench warfare" while I was still learning the ins and outs of Civ II many years ago. ... As for trade, trade early, trade often, trade forever.

I realise this is slightly But I just wanted to say that your Roman Timeline on the home page is truly awesome!

 

[Andu Indorin]

Why, thanks! Though, with time, it's a bit dated. ...

 

[Duran]

when i pull the plug on most games is in the begaining... i can get bored easly and if im playing a game were you push enter over and over again i get bored... but then im always ahead in the tech race... close to last in military power... but with the high tech that tends to be over turned because i can quicky build an army that the AI has trouble with... or when every one has nukes and no SDI, and pissed off leaders so nukes are flying every where... can get boreing again.

 

[Kessey]

Is there a specific year where, if you wipe out all other civs, no more pop up? I conquered the world at 1700 AD (small map just as a trial), and no one's popped up for a while.

As for govs, I prefer Communism since you have more control over your country, and no one can bug you for starting a war (i.e. the @$## senate). Your science and tax are limited, but engineering and freights can counter.

Jay