Attack and Defense VS 1 Number

[EditorRex]

name one occurence when a primitive club wielding warrior has tricked a tank into getting stuck between two trees. bet you cant.

Not a lot of battles in which tanks have faced primitive club-wielding warriors, but American infantry neutralized a German Panzers advance with exactly this strategy in some parts of the Battle of the Bulge. (Panzers are not good forest/jungle weapons.) Since it doesn't involve the use of the defender's weapon, whether it's a rifle or a club doesn't matter.

And yes, the Battle of Endor is an excellent example, but I would only have brought that up if I was playing a mod.

Some of the anti-tank tactics that the Northern Alliance employed during the early phases of U.S. involvement with the war with the Taliban bear mentioning. They invented successful cavalry OFFENSIVE tactics against modern armor. Pretty impressive.

 

[Schuesseled]

Not a lot of battles in which tanks have faced primitive club-wielding warriors, but American infantry neutralized a German Panzers advance with exactly this strategy in some parts of the Battle of the Bulge. (Panzers are not good forest/jungle weapons.) Since it doesn't involve the use of the defender's weapon, whether it's a rifle or a club doesn't matter.

And yes, the Battle of Endor is an excellent example, but I would only have brought that up if I was playing a mod.

Some of the anti-tank tactics that the Northern Alliance employed during the early phases of U.S. involvement with the war with the Taliban bear mentioning. They invented successful cavalry OFFENSIVE tactics against modern armor. Pretty impressive.

yes but its far easier to take out a tank by tossing a frag grenade through a cupola than by grunting and slapping it with a stick.

 

[EditorRex]

yes but its far easier to take out a tank by tossing a frag grenade through a cupola than by grunting and slapping it with a stick.

LOL! Hey, my warriors have better tactics than the outdated grunt and slap with stick maneuver. Much better is to rapel out of trees onto the top of the tank, bang annoyingly on tank with sticks, and have our Wookie commando rip the head off anyone who pops out.

Seriously, here's the point I'm trying to make:
There should always be a possibility, one that might be so infinitessimal that it never never comes up, that the Warrior squad wins. But there should also be a possibility, one that's much more likely, that the Modern Armor emerges with 0 damage.

 

[Schuesseled]

LOL! Hey, my warriors have better tactics than the outdated grunt and slap with stick maneuver. Much better is to rapel out of trees onto the top of the tank, bang annoyingly on tank with sticks, and have our Wookie commando rip the head off anyone who pops out.

Seriously, here's the point I'm trying to make:
There should always be a possibility, one that might be so infinitessimal that it never never comes up, that the Warrior squad wins. But there should also be a possibility, one that's much more likely, that the Modern Armor emerges with 0 damage.

we can at least agree that tanks should have a higher chance of getting no damage than getting destoryed by the grunt and slap maneuver.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Seriously, here's the point I'm trying to make:
There should always be a possibility, one that might be so infinitessimal that it never never comes up, that the Warrior squad wins. But there should also be a possibility, one that's much more likely, that the Modern Armor emerges with 0 damage.

That might be realistic, but
Gameplay> Realism
and
Fun>Gameplay

Honestly the 1 in 1000 chance of losing my Tank unit is Not fun, and it doesn't make for good Gameplay

Also my Warrior not doing Anything against ....a Tank is reasonable, but say a Knight.. is also not fun, and contributes to poor gameplay... because the RNG has too much influence.

That is why I'm Hoping that the reason they aren't displaying combat odds is because combat odds aren't really there to be displayed... you Will win or you Will lose or neither...the only odds are in how much damage you take/do in the process.

 

[GhostWriter16]

That might be realistic, but
Gameplay> Realism
and
Fun>Gameplay

Honestly the 1 in 1000 chance of losing my Tank unit is Not fun, and it doesn't make for good Gameplay

Also my Warrior not doing Anything against ....a Tank is reasonable, but say a Knight.. is also not fun, and contributes to poor gameplay... because the RNG has too much influence.

That is why I'm Hoping that the reason they aren't displaying combat odds is because combat odds aren't really there to be displayed... you Will win or you Will lose or neither...the only odds are in how much damage you take/do in the process.

No combat odds should exist, displayed or no.

Warrior VS Tank? Tank should always win (Can live with the 0.01 chance but prefer it gone.) Rifleman VS Tank, Tank should be favored, but could go either way.

 

[Ahriman]

No combat odds should exist

but could go either way.

How can you possibly believe both of these statements simultaneously?

In order for a combat to be able to "go either way", that means there must be a probability distribution over outcomes. Which, by definition, means combat odds, since combat odds are by definition the probabilities of the different outcomes.

And hiding those combat odds just takes away all strategic content from warfare.

 

[mjs0]

Combat odds are a lot harder to display, and can be very misleading, if the likely outcome is that both units survive.

There is a chance of survival for each unit, the most likely damage for each unit, etc, etc.

How do you sum up that complex distribution in a few numbers, what actual probability should be displayed?

My rifleman, strength X attacks yours at strength Y

The most likely outcome, 15% say, is that both survive having lost A and B hit points respectively, and there is a spread of results either side of that with lower probabilities.
The chance of Total victory for either side is very low.

I'm having a hard time imagining what set of simple numbers can represent this and convey information that is useful without being confusing.

A single number that communicates your chance of 'winning' (whatever that means, maybe that you survive and lose fewer HPs than your opponent does?) just doesn't communicate enough info to be useful in my opinion.

A broad prediction of total, major or minor victory/loss with a graphical representation of the most likely result in terms of HPs conveys the situation far better than any single number could.

 

[Ahriman]

A single number that communicates your chance of 'winning' (whatever that means, maybe that you survive and lose fewer HPs than your opponent does?) just doesn't communicate enough info to be useful in my opinion.

Then communicate more info, not less.

My issue isnt' with whether its a single number, or a distribution, or whatever. Its with the idea that its better to suppress data from the player and make them act blind (but perhaps this isn't what "No combat odds should exist, displayed or no." meant?).

But if you have anything except a deterministic outcome to every combat (ie one thing happens with 100% probability) then you have probability calculations going on ("combat odds") that determine the outcome, and those probabilities need to be displayed.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Then communicate more info, not less.

My issue isnt' with whether its a single number, or a distribution, or whatever. Its with the idea that its better to suppress data from the player and make them act blind (but perhaps this isn't what "No combat odds should exist, displayed or no." meant?).

But if you have anything except a deterministic outcome to every combat (ie one thing happens with 100% probability) then you have probability calculations going on ("combat odds") that determine the outcome, and those probabilities need to be displayed.

The alternative is that the probabilities don't vary
(Still hoping for a simple combat system)

ie Str 50 Tank v. Str 10 Long Sword

Tank will take 4 or 8 damage (20 /5... x2 possible)
Longsword will take 100 or 200 damage (20 x 5 ... x2 possible) only has 100 hp
=
Total Victory (enemy will die, you won't)

So the Displayed values should be 'possible damage on my side' v. 'possible damage on yours'

no % needed