Attack and Defense VS 1 Number

No, what we have in Civ4 is the opposite; we have only strength. Strength and hit points are the same statistic, so when a unit takes damage it becomes less likely to win a combat round.

Civilization IV has a simple combat statistics with all kinds of modifiers which can mimic many situations. However, it still does use both current hitpoints and strength parameters to calculate the results of combat in its combat rounds. It also uses first strikes which cannot be represented by strength alone. So after all modifiers, civ4 combat uses 3 parameters: strength, hitpoints and first strikes. It's a fairly simple mechanism, but good enough for a civilization game.

I hope they'll use a model of
-damage inflicted per combat round, slightly random value based on unit strength
-damage absorbed per combat round
-every round is a hit, no odds to hit
-hit points
-first strike damage, also slightly random
-ranged distance for artillery type units and bombers
-limited rounds per battle (say 3 for all units)
-many modifiers of damage per round based on terrain, promotions, surroundings, fortification, etc.

Very similar to civ4, only the damage absorbed per combat round could be used to elegantly make very modern units impervious to very ancient units without making small jumps in military technology insurmountable.

So for example a knight:
damage 5-15 per round, absorption 3, 100 hitpoints, no first strikes, no ranged attack, movement 4. Knights do 50% extra damage versus bow-units. (Spear based units do double damage versus knights.)
 
Given ranged combat, first strikes should probably be done away with. IMO, they were an abstraction of that.

I agree that first strikes were an interesting way to abstract ranged fire in civ4. However, I also think they would be an interesting way to differentiate between gunpowder front line soldiers like riflemen and melee based front line soldiers like swordsmen in civ5. The only other way would be to make every gunpowder unit a ranged unit which would result in a combat model where any single front line soldier could be focus fired to death. That would be against the idea of a civ5 combat model where units are valuable and where they don't die easily.
 
But doesn't a gunpowder unit's greater range cancel out when facing another gunpowder unit? The only time it wouldn't is when the world is transitioning to gunpowder.

That might also work. You'd give units an ability like: 'ranged fire vs ancient/classical/medieval units'. So you'd get two types of ranged fire: true ranged fire and ranged fire vs a limited set of units. I don't know whether everyone would like that though; it's a bit forced, clunky. But there will be an issue with civ combat through the ages however you approach it. It's just very hard to envision one combat mechanic which is used to represent battles with clubs and battles with rockets.

I doubt civ5 will have lots of obsolete units running around as can be the case for civ4.

Any particular reason why that'd be true?

By the way, the AI in civilization IV usually upgraded its units just fine (at the higher difficulty levels). Human players would sometimes keep obsolete units as city guards in their inner cities.
 
In civ4, obsolete units simply cost a little gold. In civ5 they will take something far more valuable: a tile.

Since cities in civ5 defend themselves without units, I can imagine that human players at least won't have a reason to keep obsolete units in the centre of their empire as peace keeping troops. For the AI, it's just a matter of programming it correctly. There's little reason to assume that the AI programmers have suddenly become a lot better at that job.

But as I said before, I rarely encountered non-upgraded AI troops in civ4. So are you talking about the AI units or human units when you say that they will be upgraded better in civ5?

Hmm, by the way, I just realise that this is not a very interesting subject to discuss. ;) Let's go back to discussing the interesting civ5 combat mechanics and how they might work. :D
 
I am concerned however, how will they make large army movement possible without stacking, you must be able to move many units at once to speed up movement of large masses of units. It would be horrible to have to move every single unit one by one in a large army.

Ok, here´s how the old classic Panzer General does battle:

Let´s take two infantry units against each other. The defender has 10 hitpoints and the attacker is an experienced unit which have the possibility of OVERSTRENGTHING, so let´s say the attacker has 15 hitpoints. The attacker throws its hitpoints against the defender and does damage according to its attack values, infantry might have attack values like SOFT ATTACK 5 and HARD ATTACK (against tanks) 2, AIR ATTACK 1 and so forth. Of course an overstrength unit does more damage than a normal unit, it has more men and more firepower, logical.
A more advanced infantry unit might have more firepower so it has higher attack values and so on.

So the attacker attacks and defender defends, the defender has level 5 entrenchment, it has spent 5 turns fortifying, so unless the attacking unit is an engineer unit which bypasses entrenchment, the result will be a costly combat for the attacker and more so if the high entrenchment triggers a "combat event" like "tenacious defence" or "ferocious defence" which increase defence effectiveness highly resulting in even more casualties for the attacker.
Of course there could be offensive combat events as well, giving bonuses for the attacker, like "fire support" or "shock" etc. Tanks have the capability of overrunning weak defenders, they simply blow them away and continue movement.

When defending artillery units have the capability of SUPPORTING FIRE, they fire in support of defence when in range, a powerful artillery is key in both attack and defence. Attackers use artillery with longer range to destroy the defenders artillery and to reduce entrenchment, more entrenchment weakens artillery´s effect, so it might take several turns of bombardment to weaken a well entrenched foe.

In People´s General it was possible to do air support missions, you could place a fighter-bomber over an area and it would fire in support of defence within nearby hexes, air strikes could also be used to bombard defenders, although any nearby anti-aircraft units would fire on an attacking plane making airstrikes very risky when the enemys anti aircraft units had not yet been destroyed by artillery or by air defence suppression air missions

All in all, the PG series had a good combat system, they used multiple values, but as I´ve said all the same effects can be done with one attack/defence value which uses modifiers to simulate different effects. Hitpoints would be good to have I think. You could have units which have lots of men but little firepower and small units with few men but immense firepower.

You could have combats with 15 hitpoints versus 10 hitpoints, even if 10 hitpoints has more attack strength and wins all 10 dice throws and kills 10 points of the enemy, they would still have 5 hitpoints left. every strength point could both inflict damage and parry damage, but that would lead to an automatic win if you have more strength points, 5 str vs 10 str, 5points are blocked but 5 get through and do damage

Or alternately you would have hitpoints and strength points, in combat dice would be thrown as many times as there are strength points, who gets a higher score wins and does damage, example str 5 vs. str 10, 5 throws result in 500 and 10 throws result in 10, damage done to loser according to damage value, some units could have a higher damage value, doing more damage when they do, FIREPOWER value

Also, the combat dice could be "weighed" in some cases, for example tanks could get a modifier giving them more points per every dice throw making even a hitpoint 1 out of 10 tank lethal. Weighing the dice could simulate tactics, tactically superior units are more likely to win dice throws than disorganized barbarians, like Roman legions vs. barbarians.

Let´s hope we get a good combat system for Civ 5.

Cheers! :goodjob:

PS.

- "every round is a hit" , I think that would be unrealistic, my idea is to simulate real world dynamics with a mathematical model like modifiers and values, every value and mechanic MUST have a real world foundation.
In battle not every bullet hits, muskets were very inaccurate, archery was difficult etc. Ranged combat should have accuracy as a value.

First strikes simulate ranged combat on a battlefield, for example two units start at 1000 meters range on a field, other one is swordsmen other one is archers, they close each other, at some hundred meters distance the archers fire a volley (1 first strike), they can fire multiple volleys (drill promotions, can fire quicker, more first strikes) as the swordsmen close the distance to melee range, when the melee begins archers should be vulnerable, they should be easy pickings for swordsmen on open field (-50% defence) so in open field, unless archers do away with the enemy with first strikes, they are gone.

In musket era it is the same thing, two musketeers both have first strikes, both fire once or more at each other before melee begins (bayonet attack), well drilled musketeers could fire more volleys quicker than untrained ones. (more first strikes)

When two units with first strikes meet, what determines who fires first? Should there be an INITIATIVE value, to determine that?

So definetely keep first strikes they simulate ranged fire on the battlefield when two units meet.

Paradox uses a system called "combat phases" to simulate ranged combat in europa universalis series which simulates history in the time period 1419-1820 including both medieval era and musket era combat. In this system you first have FIRE PHASE (ranged combat) followed by MELEE PHASE, basically the same system, ranged units fire first and then the melee begins.

The question is how many times can an archer unit or a musketeer unit fire BEFORE the melee begins? Well trained archers can fire multiple times and the amount of time they have depends on how far a bow can shoot (500 meters? or less?) and how many shots you can shoot in that time as the melee units close in (probably running and screaming wildly so that lessens the time you have), so how many seconds do you have before the melee units have run the distance from about 500 meters (maximum range of the bow) or less to you, how good were you in school gymnastics when they had running, I sucked but still 100 meters doesn´t take that long even if you walk. (Roman legions walked because they were keeping formation and because they had large shields to take cover behind, I presume you CAN run even with an armour shirt on, it´s just harder and heavier.)
The same problem was with muskets, you could not shoot accurately beyond a few hundred meters, so a melee unit could easily charge the distance and close in quickly, the musketeers might have time for ONE volley but no more, UNLESS they were using advanced tactics like PLATOON FIRING in which not all musketeers would discharge their weapons at once but one out of maybe three rows would fire and then move to reload while other rows fired, this kind of quicker firing could do more damage.

So in my opinion the combat system must reflect real world dynamics in its modeling, every mechanic MUST be based on a real foundation, that is what are you trying to simulate with the mechanic, give examples?

For example, what does "damage absorbtion" mean to simulate, what real situation?
 
I really think they need to move to 1 round per combat, it allows the
In game values(Str/hp/att/def/armor/firepower/whatever)->combat results to be clear and transparent. Instead of requiring a combat calculator.

Esentially the Entire combat between those two units for that Turn should be Abstracted into one round and the desired combat results do to gameplay (ie no spear beating healthy tank) should be reflected in the value given to the units rather than complex combat mechanics.

You shouldn't have rounds because this is not a 1v1 D&D game, it is an army attacking another army...trying to model it in any sensible way would be too complex for a game that should only take a few hundred hours for a human being to complete.

You need to abstract significantly and the appropriate level of abstraction is the level of player control... there should be no 'details' that are below the player level of control. (multiple rounds are only good if I decide what to do EACH round)
 
I really think they need to move to 1 round per combat, it allows the
In game values(Str/hp/att/def/armor/firepower/whatever)->combat results to be clear and transparent. Instead of requiring a combat calculator.

What exactly do you mean by this?
If you took this literally, then only one unit would be damaged in any given combat.
In order for units to actually die after losing ~3-4 fights, the damage from a round would have to be huge.

This would lead to a huge and unsatisfying gaps between extremes, and would feel very random and arbitrary to the player.

I would much rather have a bell-curve of combat outcomes than a "simple" system with extremes where with X% chance I won with no damage and with 100-X% chance I lost and took massive damage.

Multiple rounds are great, precisely because they give us smoothed distributions of outcomes.

The only time we had single-round combat was Civ1. It was simple, but it felt incredibly random and not fun.
 
I don't see how number of rounds factos into weather a combat calculator is needed. With all the modifiers, you need a combat calculator for civ4 no matter how many rounds of combat there are (and the answer to that question is, how ever many are needed for one unit to die or withdraw).

The combat calculator to tell you the strength is useful but not necessary.. if the game Tells me all the modifiers, I can calculate it myself... its ADDING AND SUBTRACTING.

The way in which that Strength is used is what is complicated.

If you have multiple round combat, a combat calculator is Required for people to predict the results of a combat... you can't do it in your head. (I could see an alternative where each round removed 1 point of strength from both sides... that would be simple enough to predict the result)

A single round of Civ 4 was a LOT simpler than a the whole multi round combat, but even then it was far more complicated than is should be.

In Civ 4 you have

Pre-combat calculations
Strength modifiers

Combat Round calculations
1. Chance to hit
and
2. Damage done by hit
and
3. Combat end (ie do we stop the combat on this round or not)

The combat round calculations would then have to be repeated a Variable number of times to produce the combat result.


Instead one should have

Pre-combat calculations
Strength modifiers

Combat calculations
Result. (based on relative strength/att/def/hitpoints in a simple way) a single calculation


What exactly do you mean by this?
If you took this literally, then only one unit would be damaged in any given combat.

No... In 1 round, Both units take damage.

I guess there would be three total calculations

Calculation #1.
Apply the Modifiers to the strength values of the two units

Calculation #2
Determine the damage taken by unit A

Calculation #3
Determine the damage take by unit B



In order for units to actually die after losing ~3-4 fights, the damage from a round would have to be huge.
Potentially, the amount of damage should vary... a Spear v. a Tank, the Tank should receive minimal to 0 damage, the Spear should receive massive damage

You expect this to happen in a combat, and it is VERY easy to model it in a single round.

This would lead to a huge and unsatisfying gaps between extremes, and would feel very random and arbitrary to the player.
You are assuming a 'chance to hit' model of the RNG that allows a warrior to kill a mech infantry with the right rolls..

I'm proposing a 'chance to do extra damage' RNG instead.... Ie
The Warrior has a 50% chance to do 1 point of damage to the Mech Infantry and a 50% chance to do 2 damage.
The Mech Infantry has a 50% chance to do 150 damage to the Warrior and a 50% chance to do 300 damage.


Right now you have a % chance to survive any combat (hence the spear v. tank that will Always persist under such a system with out additional gimp rules)... a 1 round system would be less random (indeeed there is no Need for an RNG at all) but it is probably good for realisms sake. More importantly with a 'chance to do extra damage' RNG, you can Set the level of randomness.

If a Warrior "normally" does 1 point of damage, then you can adjust how much extra damage they do (is extra damage 2x as much or is it 20x as much or is it 1.2x as much)... so you can have a More or Less random game engine.



Multiple rounds are great, precisely because they give us smoothed distributions of outcomes.
Why Smooth distribution why not direct distribution of outcomes?

If I am 1.1x as strong, either I will take 1.1x less damage or my opponent will take 1.1x more... always.

I would much rather have a bell-curve of combat outcomes than a "simple" system with extremes where with X% chance I won with no damage and with 100-X% chance I lost and took massive damage.
'chance to hit assumption'... that is the hold over from Civ1/ tabletop RPGs that needs to be eliminated

The only time we had single-round combat was Civ1. It was simple, but it felt incredibly random and not fun.
'chance to hit' RNG



The two Basic ways to have this model

1. Strength values alone..... The base amount of strength lost is the same for both sides... say 10% of total strength or the strength of the weaker side is the base amount lost from Both units (each then has a chance to do extra damage to the other side). (so a str 10 attacks a str 6 unit.... each side will lose 1.6 str in the battle.. or 3.2 if the ther side 'wins the roll')

2. Strength values and hit points (where all units have 100 hit points at full health, and Strength does not depend on hit points)... each side loses a different amount of hit points....
The unit with lower strength (unit W) loses 30 hp
The unit with higher strength (unit S) loses 30 hp*(Str of W)/(Str of S)

Each can then take 2x damage if the other 'wins its roll' (assuming that is the level of randomness we want)


(and you could use Att/Def instead of Str... for model type 2.. for model type 1 it would be a bit more complicated... but you could do it... attacking would not weaken your defensive ability and defending would not weaken your attacking ability..probably counter intuitive)
As a side note....
a 1% chance of doing 3x damage is More random than a 50% chance of doing 2x damage... its what randomness lets you do that is the important thing... if you just make it rare, but the randomness can still happen, then randomness still is a significant force.
 
You still have to know HOW everything is added up. For example, city raider does not give +25% to the attacker like it says - instead it gives -25% to the defender (all situational bonuses are like this). And how do you add in first strikes?

True, but you need that for Production as well (and the model could use some simplification)
(Also it Does effectively give +25% to the attacker if there are more attacker bonuses than defender bonuses... there is also the problem of the complex 'combat bonuses'.) All those are problems with the Additional complexity of Civ 4s system, even if you removed all of those complexities, then the multi-round combat would still make a calculator necessary to figure out the combat results.


As for first strikes.... That is why the units have a Range.... you want a first strike, shoot the enemy unit on a turn when they can't shoot you back. (put your unit in a position to do first strikes... ie 1upt tactics)

If you want to represent a 'close' sort of first strike... then just make the unit stronger.. or stronger v. melee units or something like that.
 
I'm proposing a 'chance to do extra damage' RNG instead....

So in your model, every unit is guaranteed to take damage every combat, no matter how much higher its strength is?

If a warrior attacks a modern infantry unit, the infantry should be unscathed with very high probability.
Your system doesn't do this, because every unit is guaranteed to do some damage.

Plus, your system is really boring. Only two possible outcomes of every battle? Either you take "bonus" damage or I take bonus damage? Why is that a good thing?

It also seems weird; you complain about having to use a combat calculator to calculate odds, but even in your system your're going to need a combat calculator to calculate the adjusted strengths (or to do so rapidly and easily).
I don't want to have to manually calculate my river crossing penalty, your forest bonus, my bonus vs melee units, my two promotions and your three promotions in my head.
 
Haven't you ever had problems with super-longbowmen that sit in the city you want but never, ever take a single point of damage no matter how many units you throw at it? Meanwhile, the rest of the units in the city are near death from collateral damage from your initial assault with siege units.
 
No.

But I just think its funny that the "solution" to the spearman vs tank is to move from a situation where the tank usually wins without taking damage to a system where the tank always wins but always takes damage.
 
Plus, your system is really boring. Only two possible outcomes of every battle? Either you take "bonus" damage or I take bonus damage? Why is that a good thing?

I assume you are talking about the fact that unit A v. Unit B only has 4 possible results (A gets bonus, B gets bonus, both do or neither do)

That
1. makes the system predictable
2. allows variation to come from things the player controls (tactics.. positioning...the techs they got...the units they decided to build)

that is why the system is good... the 'to hit chance' is a better fit for RPGs than a 4X



It also seems weird; you complain about having to use a combat calculator to calculate odds, but even in your system your're going to need a combat calculator to calculate the adjusted strengths (or to do so rapidly and easily).
I don't want to have to manually calculate my river crossing penalty, your forest bonus, my bonus vs melee units, my two promotions and your three promotions in my head.

You CAN do that, though fairly easily, just like most people don't want to calculate their State Property bonus, Stone Bonus, and Factory bonus when building something in their city... but they CAN.. and they can do it easily (its 3rd grade math)

A Combat calculator should be Provided
A Combat calculator should Not be Necessary

No.
But I just think its funny that the "solution" to the spearman vs tank is to move from a situation where the tank usually wins without taking damage to a system where the tank always wins but always takes damage.

Which is the far more believable system... It is not a Tank v. a spearman but a Tank army v. a Spearman army. If you imagine it as 1000 Civ 4 Tank units fighting 1000 Civ 4 Spearmen units, then each side would probably lose a unit.

a 1% chance of losing 100% of health is more random and annoying than a 100% chance of losing 1% of your health.


Some randomness should be in... but it should be SIMPLE... 1d 6 is simple.... 1/6 chance of each of the 6 possibilities.....10d6 is terribly complicated....

You can tell me the chance that 1d6+2>5 fairly easily without using any calculator (for the population that plays civ games).... telling me the chance that 10d6+20>50 is not possible for 99% of the population that plays civ games without using a calculator (in less than 15 minutes)
 
Oh mighty Overlord....!
Is this a math lesson or a discussion about the combat system?
I couldn´t make ANY sense out of the few past comments, they´re just math statistics and propabilities, granted I sucked in math badly. :confused:

The way I do combat calculations, evaluations and decisions, is a by simply looking at the strength of the units and estimating roughly AND of course taking into consideration the HISTORICAL facts, for example, in Rise of Mankind riflemen are just about the same strength than cavalry, that makes sense, both are armed with repeating rifles and historically riflemen dominated over cavalry at that time, cavalry melee charges with swords were a thing of the past after the introduction of quick firing repeater rifles, of course the cavalry evolved and cavalrymen became mounted infantry who dismounted to fight with rifles, so basically its riflemen vs. mounted riflemen, both have about the same strength and both can win.

I suggest you try to solve the problems by looking at history and the historical situations the game presents, not just mathematical models.
After all the PURPOSE of the models is to represent HISTORY and model REAL combat into a simulation of history with possible alternative history outcomes, like warriors meeting tanks, could happen in the real world aswell if the Brazilian army sends some tanks to crush some Amazonian tribes.

But for a real consideration warriors or basically ANY unit not armed with anti-tank weapons (infantry can be presumed to have some anti tank weapons, they are a modern unit) is doomed to lose completely, tanks are immune to small arms fire, it a FACT and it´s only a matter of how do include that fact into the model. You can make the tank so vastly more powerful that it completely dominates over any rifleman unit for example. (musketeer str 20, rifleman str 100 or 200, ten times more powerful than a musket easily, and tank str 1000 should be enough to guarantee a victory for a tank in every single confrontation and if that´s not enough then put riflemen and all other units -100% str against armoured units unitclass, if they have 0 str against tanks they can not win, they have 0 odds, simple and REAL.)

So with modifiers the problem of spearmen vs tanks can be solved, spearmen have -100% str against tanks, they have 0 chance of winning.
If you want justification for such odds, then answer the question, how do you kill a tank with a spear? You can try to climb on top of the tank, open the hatch and try to stab the crewmen to death, but I presume they have locks in the tank hatches and the crew have pistols and of course the tank can shoot you a mile away with cannon and machine guns, so the odds are against you and even if you stop 1 tank, there´s still 199 more in the tank division (if one unit represents a division)

Would someone please repeat for refreshment, WHAT IS THE CIV 4 COMBAT SYSTEM, how many combat turns? how many dice? the combat dice has 1000 sides that I know, but how many times is the combat dice thrown etc.
Is it one throw of dice per strength point or what?
How do the strength points factor in?

If its one throw of dice per str point, then a str 1 unit can be even with a str 1000 unit if the dice has 1000 sides, so to guarantee victory tank has to have str of 1001 against a warrior of str 1, that´s a bit weird.

But anyway, someone please reiterate for fun, what is the Civ 4 combat system exactly?

And please remember when designing your systems that you are representing history and real battles, how do you factor in different aspects that affect outcomes of battles in reality, how do you turn real battles into a mathematical model. Please give examples to clarify your points.

How do you factor in SKILL? (how good shots the men are or how good they are with a sword)
How do you factor in MORALE? (how brave the men are or how much fighting spirit they have)
How do you factor in FIREPOWER?
How do you factor in MANPOWER? (some units have 10.000 men, some have 15.000 etc.)
How do you factor in ranged fire and melee? (first you shoot at range then you have melee, first strikes and combat phases, of course there could be exceptions like a forest where ambushes are a possibility, go straight to melee, even swordsmen can beat riflemen in a jungle or forest)

I think there could be COMBAT TYPES, ranged combat (archers and riflemen) melee combat (swordsmen and musketeers in bayonet attack, a swordsman will probably win a musketeer in melee, a musket with a bayonet is NOT that good a weapon in a melee and a musketeer has no armor.)

My point is, ALL these real life factors have to be represented in the model, that´s the kind of mathematical combat system I´d like to see.

Cheers! :goodjob:

PS.

Here´s another problem with 1upt, how is a small island nation like Japan or Great Britain going to have a large army? The answer is NONE, there is no way a large army can fit on a small island, so you DO have a roof on unit count and it favors continental large nations and what if those too run out of land? What if there is a unit on ALL hexes of the entire map? No one could move anywhere, you´d be stuck, you couldn´t even rearrange your units if swapping tiles takes a movement point and this problem WILL come to haunt anyone who modifies the resource production upwards, so that EVERYONE will have plenty of gold and resources to build HUGE mass armies, this system favors small armies and few units and with this system there IS a maximum unit count, it is exactly as many units as there are tiles on the map. In Panzer General they had a reserve "bank", your units would be in store and when you needed them you could deploy them into the map in certain deployment zones, in Civ 5 deployment zones would be around cities I presume, but that has a weakness, what if you make an invasion and capture a distant city in a faraway land over the ocean, you capture the city with a few units and THEN you gain a deployment zone and your entire army can deploy instantly overseas like a massive paradrop, sounds unrealistic to me.

I say a better system would be to have stacking, BUT with a STACKING PENALTY, any units that are stacked would incur a -50% to -75% or even -100% combat penalty, you simply could not fight in stacks, you would have to deploy into battle formation before attacking or move in battle formation the entire way.

Another problem is, how are they going to do multiple unit movement, you HAVE TO have some system to move multiple units at once to speed up gameplay, in civ 4 it is possible to select multiple units in a stack, but what about Civ 5, what kind of a system will it have or do they expect us to move every unit one by one, boring even with less units and I happen to like large mass armies, more units is more fun! NO to maximum unit count!

These are few of the problems posed by a 1upt system, others may like the new system others don´t, will there be a mod that solves the problem, I hope so, even if it takes massive coding, I just hope that Firaxis is aware of these problems and solves them for us SOMEHOW or at least makes it easier to solve the problems by making the game easier to mod, Civ 5 DOES promise to be MORE moddable than civ 4, I wonder what they mean by that?
 
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