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attacks from cities

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ilteroi, Dec 26, 2019.

?

what should we do about attacks from cities

  1. nothing, leave everything as is

    22 vote(s)
    31.9%
  2. make them stronger

    10 vote(s)
    14.5%
  3. remove them

    18 vote(s)
    26.1%
  4. remove them and compensate by disabling healing in enemy territory

    8 vote(s)
    11.6%
  5. other

    11 vote(s)
    15.9%
  1. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    does a 1-range archer get move after attack?

    VP's ancient cities & naval have 1-range that later upgrades to 2, so bringing archer in-line fits well enough in my mind

    that said i wonder how it'll play, presuming archers still end turn on attack...
     
    DeAnno likes this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    We are talking about a space of time where there are 3-4 units: archers, warriors, pathfinders, and maybe chariots. No, I don't think archers wearing that many hats is a problem. Warriors are a free unit available immediately. If they were more useful then you could skip military techs for longer. Chariots are dependent on having/connecting horses, so even if you can build them they are greatly delayed and can't be depended on in that window. When spears and horses become available the combat rounds out.
    Spearmen aren't available yet, see above. Warriors aren't valuable units, that's right. We had a conversation about this in October and it just died on the vine because people thought it was mostly okay that warriors weren't particularly strong.

    If you honestly think Spearmen needed a boost, then you should reconsider my proposal to give spearmen formation I instead of the anti-mounted bonus, which makes them a more flexible defensive unit. But I don't think you do think spearmen are in a bad place.
    This was always the case and your change doesn't do anything to change a mobility advantage. If anything the two units are more similar now.
    we agree it will be harder to expand. we disagree that this is a positive, and we further disagree that this point was even debated until now.

    The ability for barbarians to slow your expansion depends on random chance giving you enough barb camps for it to be a problem. This is leaning hard into early game randomness as a way to balance. Doesn't seem consistent.
    An increase in city attack range to base 2 would counter this problem just as well without affecting unit/unit balance or barb hunting
    see above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    When you increase city range from 1 to 2, you greatly increase the number of tiles under threat from the city. Keeping it range 1 allows for a greater number of approach tiles for enemy units.

    G
     
  4. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    It will not matter if all of your units especially archers are effectively melee at this point
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I find giving that up acceptable. It seems like far less of a sacrifice. If you're trying to make early warmongering harder, why isn't making the approach a little harder an acceptable option?

    Melee units will generally go into melee distance to close the blockade anyways, this really isn't a big change as far as melee is concerned.
     
    azum4roll likes this.
  6. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Aug 21, 2019
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    Archers are a Tech Column 1 unit that don't require a resource to be built and can be very effective against Warriors' melee attacks. Perhaps moving Archers to Column 2 would make it somewhat easier to address concerns related to them in the earliest stages of the game, including early city attacks?
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Range 1 is not effectively melee - archers don't take damage when they attack.

    Too close to C. Bowmen.

    G
     
  8. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    I think this is actually a good compromise between 1 range and 2 range. Move after attack lets an archer kite in some circumstances, like firing from inside a forest and then backing up, and it also lets a two-thick line of archers all fire in the same turn. I would provisionally say the change to Archers should be -1 range, +1 RCS, +1 CS, Move After Attack.
     
    vyyt and civplayer33 like this.
  9. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Give them +1 :c5moves: too and rename to man-pulled chariot.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I will say that overall I would consider a range 1 archer a greater nerf overall than a range 2 city. Range 1 increases the impact of terrain, things like rivers, and will also make the enemy units stronger along with the city. Again, not saying that's good or bad, but its a factor.
     
  11. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

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    I'm not necessarily against a range 1 archer (as long as it's only the first archer on the line and won't get rekt in melee) but at the same time we are debating how we should nerf city ranged attacks in a different topic (thus making this conversation counter-productive maybe?)

    I'd say that tankier cities with less ranged damage would potentially solve this while also helping the AI.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It's also way more work for me to adjust and rebalance archer units for modmods if archer range is going to change than if base city range were increased.

    Enginseer’s and my Nubia compatibility and 4UC to be precise

    Edit: Not that asking has stopped G from kicking down my and Enginseer’s sandcastles before except one time with the England rework
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  13. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Warlord

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    Is it possible to make it like in Civ6?

    when cities are to damaged (down to red) they can´t make ranged attacks anymore. isn´t that a good alternative?
     
  14. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    What if the ranged attack from a city was removed, but ranged units in the city got a small damage bonus? Or if Archers got 1 range, then it was increased to 2 range?

    After thinking about it, I got into the removal camp after all.
     

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