attacks from cities

[Tekamthi]

does a 1-range archer get move after attack?

VP's ancient cities & naval have 1-range that later upgrades to 2, so bringing archer in-line fits well enough in my mind

that said i wonder how it'll play, presuming archers still end turn on attack...

 

[pineappledan]

It is hardly ludicrous. If a single unit stands out as the primary barb clearer, early rusher, and early defender...you don't think that's a problem? I do. With this change:

We are talking about a space of time where there are 3-4 units: archers, warriors, pathfinders, and maybe chariots. No, I don't think archers wearing that many hats is a problem. Warriors are a free unit available immediately. If they were more useful then you could skip military techs for longer. Chariots are dependent on having/connecting horses, so even if you can build them they are greatly delayed and can't be depended on in that window. When spears and horses become available the combat rounds out.

Warriors and spearmen come back into play for barbs and attacks

Spearmen aren't available yet, see above. Warriors aren't valuable units, that's right. We had a conversation about this in October and it just died on the vine because people thought it was mostly okay that warriors weren't particularly strong.

If you honestly think Spearmen needed a boost, then you should reconsider my proposal to give spearmen formation I instead of the anti-mounted bonus, which makes them a more flexible defensive unit. But I don't think you do think spearmen are in a bad place.

Chariots have a mobility advantage over archers to give them early play

This was always the case and your change doesn't do anything to change a mobility advantage. If anything the two units are more similar now.

Early expansion is a little slower due to camp control/clearing

we agree it will be harder to expand. we disagree that this is a positive, and we further disagree that this point was even debated until now.

The ability for barbarians to slow your expansion depends on random chance giving you enough barb camps for it to be a problem. This is leaning hard into early game randomness as a way to balance. Doesn't seem consistent.

Early rushes are no longer counter-less

An increase in city attack range to base 2 would counter this problem just as well without affecting unit/unit balance or barb hunting

Early defense is slightly easier due to the positioning of ranged power versus cities

see above.

 

[Gazebo]

We are talking about a space of time where there are 3-4 units: archers, warriors, pathfinders, and maybe chariots. No, I don't think archers wearing that many hats is a problem. Warriors are a free unit available immediately. If they were more useful then you could skip military techs for longer. Chariots are dependent on having/connecting horses, so even if you can build them they are greatly delayed and can't be depended on in that window. When spears and horses become available the combat rounds out.

Spearmen aren't available yet, see above. Warriors aren't valuable units, that's right. We had a conversation about this in October and it just died on the vine because people thought it was mostly okay that warriors weren't particularly strong.

If you honestly think Spearmen needed a boost, then you should reconsider my proposal to give spearmen formation I instead of the anti-mounted bonus, which makes them a more flexible defensive unit. But I don't think you do think spearmen are in a bad place.

This was always the case and your change doesn't do anything to change a mobility advantage. If anything the two units are more similar now.

we agree it will be harder to expand. we disagree that this is a positive, and we further disagree that this point was even debated until now.

The ability for barbarians to slow your expansion depends on random chance giving you enough barb camps for it to be a problem. This is leaning hard into early game randomness as a way to balance. Doesn't seem consistent.

An increase in city attack range to base 2 would counter this problem just as well without affecting unit/unit balance or barb hunting

see above.

When you increase city range from 1 to 2, you greatly increase the number of tiles under threat from the city. Keeping it range 1 allows for a greater number of approach tiles for enemy units.

G

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

When you increase city range from 1 to 2, you greatly increase the number of tiles under threat from the city. Keeping it range 1 allows for a greater number of approach tiles for enemy units.

G

It will not matter if all of your units especially archers are effectively melee at this point

 

[pineappledan]

Keeping it range 1 allows for a greater number of approach tiles for enemy units.

I find giving that up acceptable. It seems like far less of a sacrifice. If you're trying to make early warmongering harder, why isn't making the approach a little harder an acceptable option?

Melee units will generally go into melee distance to close the blockade anyways, this really isn't a big change as far as melee is concerned.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Archers are a Tech Column 1 unit that don't require a resource to be built and can be very effective against Warriors' melee attacks. Perhaps moving Archers to Column 2 would make it somewhat easier to address concerns related to them in the earliest stages of the game, including early city attacks?

 

[Gazebo]

It will not matter if all of your units especially archers are effectively melee at this point

Range 1 is not effectively melee - archers don't take damage when they attack.

Archers are a Tech Column 1 unit that don't require a resource to be built and can be very effective against Warriors' melee attacks. Perhaps moving Archers to Column 2 would make it somewhat easier to address concerns related to them in the earliest stages of the game, including early city attacks?

Too close to C. Bowmen.

G

 

[DeAnno]

does a 1-range archer get move after attack?

VP's ancient cities & naval have 1-range that later upgrades to 2, so bringing archer in-line fits well enough in my mind

I think this is actually a good compromise between 1 range and 2 range. Move after attack lets an archer kite in some circumstances, like firing from inside a forest and then backing up, and it also lets a two-thick line of archers all fire in the same turn. I would provisionally say the change to Archers should be -1 range, +1 RCS, +1 CS, Move After Attack.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I think this is actually a good compromise between 1 range and 2 range. Move after attack lets an archer kite in some circumstances, like firing from inside a forest and then backing up, and it also lets a two-thick line of archers all fire in the same turn. I would provisionally say the change to Archers should be -1 range, +1 RCS, +1 CS, Move After Attack.

Give them +1 too and rename to man-pulled chariot.

 

[Stalker0]

I will say that overall I would consider a range 1 archer a greater nerf overall than a range 2 city. Range 1 increases the impact of terrain, things like rivers, and will also make the enemy units stronger along with the city. Again, not saying that's good or bad, but its a factor.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I'm not necessarily against a range 1 archer (as long as it's only the first archer on the line and won't get rekt in melee) but at the same time we are debating how we should nerf city ranged attacks in a different topic (thus making this conversation counter-productive maybe?)

I'd say that tankier cities with less ranged damage would potentially solve this while also helping the AI.

 

[pineappledan]

It's also way more work for me to adjust and rebalance archer units for modmods if archer range is going to change than if base city range were increased.

Enginseer’s and my Nubia compatibility and 4UC to be precise

Edit: Not that asking has stopped G from kicking down my and Enginseer’s sandcastles before except one time with the England rework

 

[Tarzan737]

Is it possible to make it like in Civ6?

when cities are to damaged (down to red) they can´t make ranged attacks anymore. isn´t that a good alternative?

 

[Gidoza]

What if the ranged attack from a city was removed, but ranged units in the city got a small damage bonus? Or if Archers got 1 range, then it was increased to 2 range?

After thinking about it, I got into the removal camp after all.