I wanted to win through domination just to see how it is. I made a map with only a rather small continent and eight civs in it. I played this cenario and conquered everything except one city. Then I made sure that every square of this continent was colonized. I had way more than 75% of this continent inside my borders. And since this was the only island or continent on this world, I had more than 75% of the world inside my borders. But I didn´t win! I am sure that I enabled all the victories in the beginning of the game. I only won when I conquered that last city and it was, of course, a conquest victory.
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Attempted domination
- Thread starter Arvedui
- Start date
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
similar thing with a game of mine; I was sur I was dominant enough (though I didn`t check exactly) and I didn`t win. So i thought what the heck, then I`m goona win by culture (that was soon to come) - and a few turns later i won by domination.
Seems the game sometimes needs alittle time to calculate
Seems the game sometimes needs alittle time to calculate
YoungEagle
Chieftain
I know that the rules say 75% of the land mass, but I wonder if on one continent worlds (island worlds) the 75% is land+water coverage?
I know this would make it impossible if your continent were too small. It seems like a bug to me too.
I know this would make it impossible if your continent were too small. It seems like a bug to me too.
My thoughts on the domination "problem".
I believe the strategy book states a 66% territory occupation is required for a domination win. IMO, this should read an AVERAGE 66% occupation is required.
This is will explain why a domination victory isn't automatic once you obtain the 66% during the game as the game averages out your territory over the number of turns.
I've read somewhere that the map size needs to be multiplied by .5 to get the actual number of squares allocated to your world due to the diamond shape. A standard map of 100 x 100 would really have (100 x 100) x .5 squares or 5,000 (not 10,000). With a 70% water allocation this means that 30% would be your world size - 1,500.
When you refer to the histograph it provides your average territory occupancy therefore you can always check your progress during the game. This could also explain why you can sit on 80% of the squares for some time waiting for your average occupany/zone of control value to increase.
I've only just thought of this and haven't had time to prove it yet. Maybe someone is in a domination game now whereby they might want to try this and report back.:crazyeyes
I believe the strategy book states a 66% territory occupation is required for a domination win. IMO, this should read an AVERAGE 66% occupation is required.
This is will explain why a domination victory isn't automatic once you obtain the 66% during the game as the game averages out your territory over the number of turns.
I've read somewhere that the map size needs to be multiplied by .5 to get the actual number of squares allocated to your world due to the diamond shape. A standard map of 100 x 100 would really have (100 x 100) x .5 squares or 5,000 (not 10,000). With a 70% water allocation this means that 30% would be your world size - 1,500.
When you refer to the histograph it provides your average territory occupancy therefore you can always check your progress during the game. This could also explain why you can sit on 80% of the squares for some time waiting for your average occupany/zone of control value to increase.
I've only just thought of this and haven't had time to prove it yet. Maybe someone is in a domination game now whereby they might want to try this and report back.:crazyeyes
You're correct about it only offering the squares and not the percentage covered. As domination is based on a percentage, then a percentage value in parenthesis would be a nice to have.
At least this calculation can be derived at the start of the game, when you make your world selection therefore the number of squares you aim for is known in advance.
This is a theory only to explain why domination occurs at higher actual square occupancy than you would expect due to AI averaging.
I'm in the middle of a game where Domination is not an option for me therefore I'm supporting the theory in the hope that someone is better placed to verify this ( or condem it as fiction)
At least this calculation can be derived at the start of the game, when you make your world selection therefore the number of squares you aim for is known in advance.
This is a theory only to explain why domination occurs at higher actual square occupancy than you would expect due to AI averaging.
I'm in the middle of a game where Domination is not an option for me therefore I'm supporting the theory in the hope that someone is better placed to verify this ( or condem it as fiction)
Greadius
:yeah:
I'm going for domination victory on Marla's Map, which is bigger than a Huge map. I really didn't think it was realistic, so I'm curious to see what exactly I need.
I control all of North America and have just propped up my first Colony in Africa, and its only 1776. When I get nuclear weapons those other civs are going to topple in miliseconds...
I control all of North America and have just propped up my first Colony in Africa, and its only 1776. When I get nuclear weapons those other civs are going to topple in miliseconds...
Mozenwrath
Warlord
Hmmm, well, from as much much as I can make sense of all the rambling that andrewj is doing, I think I agree. The domination victory wouldn't be "proper" if you won as soon as you got the amount of land you needed. I think an average-type calculation or a turn duration is what the game uses to determine a winner. As for me, I've never won through domination anyways...
chiefpaco
Emperor
I just won a game through domination. I found it pretty disappointing since I really didn't know the victory was imminent (though not surprising as I was just about to wipe out the last civ and did control most of the territory).
I think andrewj is close to the answer though does anone have a definitive guide to the domination victory? I know the 66% rule, but how does one tell for sure?
I see 2 stats that are clues (if anyone has a better explanation of what they mean, please respond):
- in the civ statistics, there is an entry called "Land Area" given in square miles.
- in the scoresheet, there is an entry called "Territory".
For the first, after some investigation, I believe "Land Area" is the # of squares inside your borders * 100. I'm also sure, despite the name, that it includes water territory you own too.
For the "territory", that calculation is beyond me so far. That is some sort of moving number. I tried starting a new game & built my 1st city. Within a few turns, the "Territory" value was up over 30 despite my "Land Area" still at 9 squares. So, I haven't found it straightfoward.
When I won via domination , I was playing a standard map and I'm pretty sure it was 70% water. My territory just passed 1200 and my land area was 127400 sq mi.
There are 5000 total squares in the standard map, that's for sure. At 30% land mass, that gives ~1500 land squares and a 66% land territory of 1000 squares, well off both of the indicators available to me.
So, any help? So far, my theory is that neither number gives you a definitive guide and the game finds some average that we are not presented with. Anyone, please dispute...
PS, Of all the fixes, I think knowing how close you are to the victory conditions needs to be clearer, or at least explained. I'd rather know how close everyone is to winning rather than what score everyone has. Space race, conquest, city culture, and score are clear enough to me while playing. Overall culture and diplomatic could be made a little clearer, and domination could at least be explained, if not presented.
PPS, I am not insane. I can get a good idea of when someone's going to win by domination or overall culture. I just would like to know definitively for curiosity's sake.
I think andrewj is close to the answer though does anone have a definitive guide to the domination victory? I know the 66% rule, but how does one tell for sure?
I see 2 stats that are clues (if anyone has a better explanation of what they mean, please respond):
- in the civ statistics, there is an entry called "Land Area" given in square miles.
- in the scoresheet, there is an entry called "Territory".
For the first, after some investigation, I believe "Land Area" is the # of squares inside your borders * 100. I'm also sure, despite the name, that it includes water territory you own too.
For the "territory", that calculation is beyond me so far. That is some sort of moving number. I tried starting a new game & built my 1st city. Within a few turns, the "Territory" value was up over 30 despite my "Land Area" still at 9 squares. So, I haven't found it straightfoward.
When I won via domination , I was playing a standard map and I'm pretty sure it was 70% water. My territory just passed 1200 and my land area was 127400 sq mi.
There are 5000 total squares in the standard map, that's for sure. At 30% land mass, that gives ~1500 land squares and a 66% land territory of 1000 squares, well off both of the indicators available to me.
So, any help? So far, my theory is that neither number gives you a definitive guide and the game finds some average that we are not presented with. Anyone, please dispute...
PS, Of all the fixes, I think knowing how close you are to the victory conditions needs to be clearer, or at least explained. I'd rather know how close everyone is to winning rather than what score everyone has. Space race, conquest, city culture, and score are clear enough to me while playing. Overall culture and diplomatic could be made a little clearer, and domination could at least be explained, if not presented.
PPS, I am not insane. I can get a good idea of when someone's going to win by domination or overall culture. I just would like to know definitively for curiosity's sake.
Ironikinit
Prince
Quoting chiefpaco:
"For the "territory", that calculation is beyond me so far. That is some sort of moving number. I tried starting a new game & built my 1st city. Within a few turns, the "Territory" value was up over 30 despite my "Land Area" still at 9 squares. So, I haven't found it straightfoward. "
End quote.
Try dividing it by the #turns played. The histogram scores are cumulative.
"For the "territory", that calculation is beyond me so far. That is some sort of moving number. I tried starting a new game & built my 1st city. Within a few turns, the "Territory" value was up over 30 despite my "Land Area" still at 9 squares. So, I haven't found it straightfoward. "
End quote.
Try dividing it by the #turns played. The histogram scores are cumulative.
chiefpaco
Emperor
Thanks for the help. Seriously, I do appreciate it. However, the cumulative model doesn't quite work for me.
In the latest game I was playing, as posted, I had a territory of 1200 and a land area of 1274. If territory were cumulative, it would not be less than the land area. Assuming I didn't conquer tons of squares in my last move, which I didn't. I still think it's some sort of average.
One more note about land squares. I subtracted the number of water squares out of my "Land mass" and came up with 359 water squares (do I have anything better to do? ) so a land mass of 915 would result, which doesn't really help out, but I thought it could've.
In the latest game I was playing, as posted, I had a territory of 1200 and a land area of 1274. If territory were cumulative, it would not be less than the land area. Assuming I didn't conquer tons of squares in my last move, which I didn't. I still think it's some sort of average.
One more note about land squares. I subtracted the number of water squares out of my "Land mass" and came up with 359 water squares (do I have anything better to do? ) so a land mass of 915 would result, which doesn't really help out, but I thought it could've.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
In some testing I did, it appears that "coastal" tiles are included in the game's count of tiles toward Domination. I.e. the rule seems to be that you need 66% of the total (land + coastal) tiles within your sphere of influence to reach the Domination threshold. I suspect it is a bug, not intentional. This sure does make it a fuzzy goal, I wish it was clearer!!!
IronicWarrior19
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2001
- Messages
- 151
In civ2, 'land area' was the amount of land that your units had last passed over (the land was taken away I believe when another civ passed over the same squares). It sounds to me like this is 'territory' in civ3, as I assume you're exploring early on which would explain the high value compared to 'land area', but later on not all the land in your borders has had your units moving over it, or AI units moved over there last, which would explain the lower values when compared with your 'land area'.
Just fininished a domination on a large random map.
For the last 20 turns it looked like I had more than 66 %, but I could not tell,, suddenly, I won...
At the time it said I had 373,600 Sq Miles
Started a new game on a large map. Miles = the number of squares. one city, 9 squares 900 sq miles.
Later, counting squares, 162 squares, 16200 sq miles
the territory figure, I do not know. started at 27 in 490bc had 118 miles, 143.7 terr. 470, 127 (added a city) and 146.2. 450,430, 410 no change in area... and territory went up 2 points each turn.
350bc, 136 miles, 158 terr. 100BC 162 miles, 185 Territory.
In the early game it is staying about 25 points ahead of the squares.
That's a start. Will look at the stats in the later game as it progresses.
For the last 20 turns it looked like I had more than 66 %, but I could not tell,, suddenly, I won...
At the time it said I had 373,600 Sq Miles
Started a new game on a large map. Miles = the number of squares. one city, 9 squares 900 sq miles.
Later, counting squares, 162 squares, 16200 sq miles
the territory figure, I do not know. started at 27 in 490bc had 118 miles, 143.7 terr. 470, 127 (added a city) and 146.2. 450,430, 410 no change in area... and territory went up 2 points each turn.
350bc, 136 miles, 158 terr. 100BC 162 miles, 185 Territory.
In the early game it is staying about 25 points ahead of the squares.
That's a start. Will look at the stats in the later game as it progresses.
Dark Sheer
Deity
Anyone experience this before?
In my last game as Greek, I have over 100k culture but Egypt was also pretty high in culture so I did not get a culture victory there and then. Then China and Egypt declare war on me. After some 10 plus turns of long war (each turn lasted for over half hour in battles alone ), I manage to eliminate both Chinese and Egyptian. And the next turn I win by cultural victory! 
In my last game as Greek, I have over 100k culture but Egypt was also pretty high in culture so I did not get a culture victory there and then. Then China and Egypt declare war on me. After some 10 plus turns of long war (each turn lasted for over half hour in battles alone
), I manage to eliminate both Chinese and Egyptian. And the next turn I win by cultural victory! IronicWarrior19
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2001
- Messages
- 151
Hehe, I seem to remember a save where all victory conditions were possible the next turn, but not cultural victory by conquest.
Not exactly, well not actually. But close. In the domination I just won, the graph showed my culture Really close to twice China -- my score was about 145,000. So I attacked china to remove her, or at least enough that it would severly curtail the culture points she was accumulating, and allow me to double her score. Might have worked, except England joined in, and I ended with a domination.
By elilminating Egypt, and her score from competition, you became more than twice anyone else.
By elilminating Egypt, and her score from competition, you became more than twice anyone else.
As I progress through the years, I am noting territory/land figures.
It looks like the territory figure (f8) goes up 2-3 point every turn, whether your land increases or not. So far, it has been about 25 higher than the number of squares I occupy since the very beginning ot he game... turn 1. At 540AD, it is 295.7. I occupy 272 squares, and my land area (f11) is 27200 sq miles.
When My area stabilizes, assuming that it will, some day... we will see if it continues to climb.
It looks like a running average, but on turn 2 it was 27, and my land was 9. When the first city Rome, expanded to 21, it only went up 2. Sure would like to know what that figure really is.
It looks like the territory figure (f8) goes up 2-3 point every turn, whether your land increases or not. So far, it has been about 25 higher than the number of squares I occupy since the very beginning ot he game... turn 1. At 540AD, it is 295.7. I occupy 272 squares, and my land area (f11) is 27200 sq miles.
When My area stabilizes, assuming that it will, some day... we will see if it continues to climb.
It looks like a running average, but on turn 2 it was 27, and my land was 9. When the first city Rome, expanded to 21, it only went up 2. Sure would like to know what that figure really is.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Your score for territory (the 27 you saw) is the total of your territory value for each turn so far, divided by the number of turns. On each turn, your territory score is the number of tiles within your sphere of influence, multiplied by your difficulty level. So, since you were seeing 27 at the start, this tells me that you were playing at Regent level - that's the third level, so the score values get multipled by 3, 9 tiles -> 27 points.
Since the territory score is an average of your turns so far, it isn't very useful for anticipating Domination. Domination is based just on your holdings in the current turn, not on your average.
Since the territory score is an average of your turns so far, it isn't very useful for anticipating Domination. Domination is based just on your holdings in the current turn, not on your average.
IronicWarrior19
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2001
- Messages
- 151
That doesn't seem a very logical calculation for 'territory', very misleading indeed.
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