Automatic Unit Upgrades

[Ivan the Kulak]

Well, I do not like to see spearmen defending cities when I go in there with tanks. Aside from the occasional heroic spearman (lol) it is not much of a challenge. Maybe what is necessary is a generic, baseline, no resource unit for every age past ancient that only the AI can have. I would say, maybe a Halberdier for the Middle ages, Rifle Militia for the Industrial age, and perhaps a Modern Infantry (Balou's unit) for the Modern age. These units would all have slightly less defense stats than the normal foot units of the age. Once the player researches certain techs near the end of the age, the AI's units from the previous age will automatically upgrade to one of these. For example, once you hit Magnetism or Military Tradition, the AI spearmen automatically upgrade to Halberdiers. When you hit Motorized transport or Flight, the AIs units go up to Rifle Militia. When you hit Robotics or Stealth, they go up to modern infantry. This system obviously is not perfect and needs some thought. For example, the player could exploit by not researching a particular tech to retain military advantage, so perhaps there must be a range of possible tech that trigger the upgrade, or perhaps a chance per each new flagged tech researched. However, you would still have a chance of Tank vs Pikeman (or Halberdier) this way, so that still doesn't solve the whole problem, perhaps the tech tree would have to be designed to take this into account.

Regardless, I would rather have to fight this way. World conquest should be made difficult through combat and production, not hopeless corruption and crazy dice rolls, a la spearmen killing of Mech Infantry and tanks.

 

[mitsho]

@Thordish I must correct you. The 'Schweizer Garde' - Swiss Guard - of the Vatican is a highly modernized and proffessional army, or better bodyguard troop for the Pope. The one you mean are just show. It's like the british soldier in front of the Buckingham.

My solution:
1. Make AI smarter
2. If the second follow-up tech is researched (example warrior: If Feudalism is researched), the price to upgrade units gets less.

mfG mitsho

 

[Zild]

How about just forcing the AI to upgrade at a certain point, through programming?

For example, they can upgrade from Pikeman to Musket at Gunpowder, and you program them so that they start doing so. If they reach the tech after Gunpowder (memory's gone, sorry!) then they have an even greater bias towatds upgrading. If they reach two or three techs ahead of Gunpowder, they automatically set research to 0% until they can afford to upgrade all of their Pikemen.

It's a bit harsh, but it would probably work for the AI's benefit in the end, and it doesn't involve cheating in the AI's favour with free or cheap upgrades.

When you think about it, how often do players not upgrade units? Sometimes I'm a bit lazy with units on remote islands, and sometimes I delay for a few turns whilst using the money for other things (typically upgrading other units!) but I imagine that most people upgrade as soon as possible. Clearly there's some kind of programming that tells the AI when to upgrade (they DO upgrade sometimes, right?) - that just needs to be tweaked a little to make it a higher priority. And yes, the further past the first possible point of upgrade they are, the more likely it should become...

 

[sir_schwick]

The equivalent of spearmen and warriors in the industrial and even modern age do exist. The native americans fought muskets, rifles and cavalry, with warriors and archers. The Zulu fought the rifles, cavalry, and infantry of the British or Boer or whoever with spears.
What is a police force armed with just billy clubs, like the bobbys of london, but a warrior being used for MP effect. What about ceremonial units like the pikemen of the vatican or the chariots of ancient rome? During vietnam, the vietcong often used very primitive weapons against the US, such as bungi sticks. Guerillas in latin america often use machetes as weapons. Private sailing ships (basically caravels) still exist, and are sometimes used as transports (dunkirk). And of course, there is the molotov cocktail and tank trap combination that often allowed partisans to fight german tanks with almost nothing. Recently the Northern Alliance used cavalry in Afghanistan.

It might be nice to have obolete units morph into flavor units in appearance, but I for one can imagine.

Actually the native americans started using guns when they could get there hands on them. Sitting Bull was won with firearms, not arrows and hachets.

Bobbies do not carry guns because of British police philosophy which says that will increase cooperation and safety if policemen are not armed.

The Zulu also utilized their terrain to their advantage against an enemy that did not know how to fight in the jungle.

As for vietnam: no need to use a nuclear weapon where a grenade would do. Bungi sticks where invisible to metal detectors and deadly to the enemy.

Horses can also negotiate some territory mechanized vehicles definitely can't, and do not require gasoline feul. Plus horses are much quieter. Military technology sometimes utilizes what many woudl consider, primative weapons.

 

[rhialto]

The basic point you're making is that the ai sometimes fights with spers in your modern age. What if teh ai hasnt researched rifles yet. Has happened in some games. I agree that having teh ai have spears when it has researched rifles is an anachronism though. I think teh best solution is simply to adjust the ai sense of priority rather than give them free stuff though.

 

[Andrew_Jay]

What I would like to see is some gradual automatic upgrades. For example, once you research Modern Armour you should have to bring your tanks to cities with barracks' and that are connected to resources, and pay for the upgrade.

However, I think it would be interesting if other techs could automatically boost your a/d/m numbers. Maybe something like "Radio" could just give you a one point increase in your attack or defense. It could make things a little more interesting and fluid, and a civ that has done further research would get a deserved advantage over one that has only just researched "Combustion". To make this work throughout the game though, you'd have to use bigger values, since adding one point to a Ancient or Medieval unit would be extrememly imbalancing.

 

[sir_schwick]

I especially like your sentiment that upgrades be gradual with various techs so Iron Working is not the same for everyone. Here is an extension of this idea. Get rid of all the units now and have several tactical classes that upgrade themselves over time. Here is a short list with relative A/D/M values.

Heavy Infantry - Medium/Medium/Foot
Medium Infantry - High/Low/Foot
Light Infantry - Medium/Low/Fast Foot
Defender - Low/High/Foot
Skirmisher - Low/Medium/Fast Foot
'Uber Heavy Cavalry - High/Medium/Slow Horse
Heavy Cavalry - High/Low/Horse
Medium Cavalry - Medium/Medium/Horse
Light Cavalry - Medium/Low/Fast Horse

Over time you would see a transition and even creation fo new tactical classes. The Warrior would turn itno the swordsmen which would turn into the heavy medieval infantry whcih would turn into the halbediers which would eventually become musketeers which would become riflemen which would become heavy infantry.

 

[mitsho]

@andrew jay it wouldn't be imbalancing, just start at 10/10/1 for a warrior (regarding the civ3-system, civ4 won't be the same, will it?)

mfG mitsho

 

[Slax]

I disagree about forcing any upgrades. I leave ancient units in my internal cities. Why upgrade them?

BUT, I do think it would be good to change the graphics of the units after they are outdated (by more than 1 step). Some kind of militia unit replaces the original, but has the exact same combat stats. Graphics may change, but stats do not.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Slax, that's been suggested before, and it's a good idea. However, it leaves the problem of pushover units in the AI cities. AI needs to be built either to aggressively upgrade, getting a huge discount in gold if necessary, or another method of forcing better units in later times must be used. Seriously, do you get any satisfaction out of taking a city away from a spearman with a tank? I don't. I prefer to have to launch multiple bomber/arty attacks, just so I can start in with a good chance, then grind them down with heavy mechanized units.

 

[sir_schwick]

The AI might be smarter then you say. consider how effective spears are against tanks

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Grrrrr. That's dice rolling, not brains. I hope they implement a better combat system for civ4, seeing that kind of stuff really bites.

In my current game I have decided to punish Smoke Jaguar for his economic transgressions, namely giggling at me in the diplo screen and refusing to sell me furs and ivory. After launching a massive invasion, I get up next to Tikal, and prepare to take his furs away from him. First attacks with Modern Armors slaughter his TOW Infantry with good effect, but after getting through those, I see he has 2 pikemen in there, and they manage to force TWO MA to retreat with 1 HP left! How about a little more realism here, please?

If I was in Communism I would send those tank crews off to reeducation camps.

 

[Teabeard]

Anyone else reminded of that Indiana Jones movie where Indiana defeats a tank by stuffing a rock in the Tank barrel and also climbing on the tank and fighting the tank crew? I guess this is how the pikemen manage to do it.

 

[sir_schwick]

Grrrrr. That's dice rolling, not brains. I hope they implement a better combat system for civ4, seeing that kind of stuff really bites.

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic. The main reason happens so much is the limited number of trails because units have at most 6 HP. If they had 60 HP the problem would start to fix itself somewhat. Another improvement would be if they brought back Fire Power. I heard a rumor that FP was removed so units from later-eras would not just own untis from early eras.

Yes, but consider they are fighting at least a division of tanks, and most tanks have at least one co-axial MG and one independent MG. Maybe if there was an Indian Jones unit that could take out tanks with an amusing animation.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Yes, I realize you were being sarcastic. It is instinctively frustrating, though, to see a primitive unit take out a modern unit, however noble Firaxis' intentions were, i.e. to make human world conquest more difficult. For realism's sake, I would prefer the old civ2 type combat system. This, however, does leave the problem of making world conquest tougher. I've been thinking about that, and trying to come up with ways that could be implemented. Some of these ideas are things like better AI unit auto upgrades, as discussed in this thread, perhaps automatically reduced hit points when a unit steps or rolls onto enemy territory, reducing more the farther they get from the home country, etc. Another way might be a supply factor. The invader's units cannot heal without consumable supply containers that must be shipped from the home country via aircraft or shipping. If the AI was coded to aggressively go for these convoys (and NOT with galleys or other outdated craft) this could make things interesting. The partisan/auto pillage idea is good for this also, almost all the tile improvements around a city are automatically destroyed when you take it, and the city is completely non-producing for a goodly number of turns. Food shortages could be ignored to some extent with the concept of iron rationing by the invader. In areas recently conquered, barbarian-like partisans pop up constantly; though weak, they can damage units, and make rebuilding infrastructure difficult at best. The level of this activity could be determined to some extent by enemy government type.

I don't know if anyone here has played the Operational Art of War, by Talonsoft, but that had a very good readiness/resupply model built in, playing Barbarossa, you had so much ground to cover, your units could redline on readiness, even if they never saw combat. You had to build rail to resupply at the front, and if partisans pillaged your rail link, this could cause you serious problems.

 

[sir_schwick]

I think we all agree that to a major extent civ should keep logistics in the background. We don't build the ammo for our weapons. However, I would support the simple 'attrition' concept introduced in RoN. In enemy cultural territory(I am viaing for national and culturla territory to be seperate entities), you units will lose HP(needs to be a lot more HP) unless they have a supply convoy with them.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I agree about the logistics also. But requiring a supply convoy alone won't do the job, easy for the player to keep such a unit with them, though it may slow them down a bit. That's why I believe some kind of hard to maintain connection with the home civ should be necessary for resupply, something the AI has a good chance of breaking. If it were necessary for a unit to have a road link to the nearest producing City, and/or a link via harbor from there to the home civ for resupply, this would be a good way to model it. If as suggested the roads and such were all or mostly destroyed when an enemy city falls, then the player has to bring combat engineers (special workers) along to rebuild the road network as they go, and protect it/them from constant partisan activity, a tough job, which makes big conquests much harder. These units could perhaps build roads/special forts in 1 turn, in which damaged units could recover, they should also have 2 move points. A damaged unit could recover a certain amount of HP per turn there, more if RR is built to it. As suggested above I would not let a conquered city build ANYTHING for at least 10 turns, maybe longer depending on other civs government type. No more magical crushing of resistance with 30 MA in the city, or rush buying temples and having a content culture producing city a turn later. No more magically healed armies in a city w/barracks 2 turns later, either. The whole area would remain a seething partisan combat zone for years, hard to control and necessary to patrol with lots of units. When you took your first city you would automatically get a beachead harbor there, to represent the link back home. If that city falls - well, you're in trouble.

I guess my feeling is that the kind of total world conquest tech necessary for Conquest Victory shouldn't even be available until Industrial times, no Ancient or Middle Ages civ ever came close to controlling the whole world. The communication/transport/industrial infrastructure necessary just wasn't there. Even today that would be a near impossibility for even a great superpower, backed by an infectious ideology. I am well aware that ppl who like to conquer the world by the Middle Ages are going to scream aloud when they read this. But, it would be more realistic, to have to play nearer to the end to achieve world domination.

 

[sir_schwick]

How about this, your logistics can only run along 'secure' routes. Secure means there is no major military presence within striking distance of the tile, or you can equally defend that tile. This would lead great importance to establishing forts along roads. Roads would also be necessary for logistics. For RR, striking distance acts as though the tiles were roads.

This would definitely increase the value of Infantry and AA units. In WWII the speedy advances of Allies after OVERLORD and on Okinawa were troublesome. They gained territory but had no troops to defend it. Also, pushing your army straight for one objective would be dangerous. They could get surrounded and then be losing a lot of health as they try to break out(Korsun Pocket).

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I don't know if I would agree about the "secure route" concept, military convoys often travel thru dangerous areas regardless, and remain unmolested, the enemy may have other objectives in mind.

Having to build lots of foot units, with the slower movement, in order to guard these road squares is a good idea. It would be particularly good if unit support cost was variable, i.e., a foot unit costs 1 gold per turn to maintain, but a mech infantry costs 3, and a Modern Armor 4. This would make the player think twice about building huge armies of all mechanized units, and blithely striking out to conquer - it would be difficult to afford. Mechanized units would become more precious.

The AI should be coded to go for any road infrastructure in the conquered areas, to slow down the player, with air strikes it would have a good chance of really disrupting supply lines, at least until the player cut off the supply of oil needed to maintain the air force.

 

[sir_schwick]

I don't know if I would agree about the "secure route" concept, military convoys often travel thru dangerous areas regardless, and remain unmolested, the enemy may have other objectives in mind.

I agree, but Civ does not tend itself towards the fluid nature of conflict. It takes turns for enemies to respond to a major invasion. The idea is that you must have units stationed along the route to protect it. Its the idea of military presence being their for possible support. Also, their is air trasnport. If you have an 'air logistics' unit, they can be based out of an airbase or city and provide logistical support to a supply wagon within flight range. This means that you can still maitnain logistical support deep in enemy territory if a lot of infrastructure was destroyed.