In the Demogame we got 6 out of 8 huts barbarians. I hope I don't bring bad luck.
It's a decent start, unfortunately no game or luxes, but we'll manage.
It's a decent start, unfortunately no game or luxes, but we'll manage.
AVS2: Dutch Destruction
- Thread starter andvruss
- Start date
AndrewN
Prince
Not bad. River, BG & Forests 
Hopefully there is something nice under the black when we settle.
I have no objection to settling on the spot
@Rik IIRC you can't get barbarians out of a hut when settling, although that may have changed fo C3C.
Lets get the
out 
Hopefully there is something nice under the black when we settle.
I have no objection to settling on the spot
@Rik IIRC you can't get barbarians out of a hut when settling, although that may have changed fo C3C.
Lets get the
out 
. I'm ready for some 
I am ready for some
4000: Found Amsterdam where the settler starts. We get 25 gold....no big deal..... Lots of forest, and a wheat tile also in its city radius.
Start CB at 100% research, due in 16
3950:
Worker starts roading the BG next to the river.
3900: Amster dam is generating3 food, 1 shield and 4 commerce at size 1! Agricultural and Seafaring starting on the coast and on a river rules!
3850: zz
3800:zz
IBT: Amsterdam warrior-warrior
3750: zz
3700: zz
3650:Amsterdam grows, lux to 10%
IBT: Amsterdam warrior- curragh
3600: zz
3550: Dyes are fond a couple of tiles North of Amsterdam
3500: zz
3450: zz
IBT: Amsterdam curragh-warrior
3400: Pop a hut and get Warrior Code
3350: zz
IBT: We learn CB-bronze working at 90%, due in 18
3300: zz
3250:zz
IBT: Amsterdam warrior-settler
3200: We contact Germany. He has BW, and we have Alphabet. I trade Aplhabet for BW and 35 gold, and he turns to Cautious.
3150: zz
3100:zz
3050:zz
3000: Bismark has Masonry over us now
Comments:
Amsterdam will grow to size 4 in 1 turn. Luxes need to be turned up to 20%, and then Amsterdam will produce a settler.
IW is due in 27, with -1gpt. Can be vetoed.
Rough dot map to follow tomorrow some time.
4000: Found Amsterdam where the settler starts. We get 25 gold....no big deal..... Lots of forest, and a wheat tile also in its city radius.
Start CB at 100% research, due in 16
3950:
Worker starts roading the BG next to the river.
3900: Amster dam is generating3 food, 1 shield and 4 commerce at size 1! Agricultural and Seafaring starting on the coast and on a river rules!
3850: zz
3800:zz
IBT: Amsterdam warrior-warrior
3750: zz
3700: zz
3650:Amsterdam grows, lux to 10%
IBT: Amsterdam warrior- curragh
3600: zz
3550: Dyes are fond a couple of tiles North of Amsterdam
3500: zz
3450: zz
IBT: Amsterdam curragh-warrior
3400: Pop a hut and get Warrior Code
3350: zz
IBT: We learn CB-bronze working at 90%, due in 18
3300: zz
3250:zz
IBT: Amsterdam warrior-settler
3200: We contact Germany. He has BW, and we have Alphabet. I trade Aplhabet for BW and 35 gold, and he turns to Cautious.
3150: zz
3100:zz
3050:zz
3000: Bismark has Masonry over us now
Comments:
Amsterdam will grow to size 4 in 1 turn. Luxes need to be turned up to 20%, and then Amsterdam will produce a settler.
IW is due in 27, with -1gpt. Can be vetoed.
Rough dot map to follow tomorrow some time.
Great starting location! Any idea where the Germans are? They'll likely be trouble eventually...
As for city placement- keep in mind that as an Agricultural civ, if we start an 'irrigated' city (i.e., next to a river or freshwater source), that city produces 3 food to start rather than 2.
The two sources I think are best:
* 4 squares northwest of Amsterdam gives us control of the two dyes, a 3f/1s/2c start square, and we can either use the shielded grassland to make quick worker/settlers (5f/2s/2c); or, we can use the dye/forest for an average-growth, quick-production, massive commerce city (4f/3s/5c).
* 2 squares west, 2 Southwest of Amsterdam in the forest south of the river bend. It offers much of the same situation as the first option (shielded grass for food or rivered forest for shields and commerce), though the lack of Dyes means the commerce will be worse. On the other hand, once roaded, it can be reached in a single turn from Amsterdam; and it puts us halfway towards grabbing that Cattle with the next city.
Personally, I recommend the NW site for the Dyes and big commerce bonus, and use that to mass-produce the defensive units for the settlers Amsterdam pops out.
As for city placement- keep in mind that as an Agricultural civ, if we start an 'irrigated' city (i.e., next to a river or freshwater source), that city produces 3 food to start rather than 2.
The two sources I think are best:
* 4 squares northwest of Amsterdam gives us control of the two dyes, a 3f/1s/2c start square, and we can either use the shielded grassland to make quick worker/settlers (5f/2s/2c); or, we can use the dye/forest for an average-growth, quick-production, massive commerce city (4f/3s/5c).
* 2 squares west, 2 Southwest of Amsterdam in the forest south of the river bend. It offers much of the same situation as the first option (shielded grass for food or rivered forest for shields and commerce), though the lack of Dyes means the commerce will be worse. On the other hand, once roaded, it can be reached in a single turn from Amsterdam; and it puts us halfway towards grabbing that Cattle with the next city.
Personally, I recommend the NW site for the Dyes and big commerce bonus, and use that to mass-produce the defensive units for the settlers Amsterdam pops out.
AndrewN
Prince
Promising start
Lots of nice grassland and BG for settling. I don't think there is enough food to turn Amsterdam into a 4 turn settler factory, so we are going to have to get a couple of cities building settlers.
I also like the fact we are near to the south of the map so we are only likely to find other civs north or west.
On the down side we only appear to have one lux, but you can't have everything
andvruss, how close do you like to build your cities? Three squares west or 4 NW look good for the second site.
We also need to take a quick look to the south to see if there is anything there or room for a couple of cities down there
Lots of nice grassland and BG for settling. I don't think there is enough food to turn Amsterdam into a 4 turn settler factory, so we are going to have to get a couple of cities building settlers.
I also like the fact we are near to the south of the map so we are only likely to find other civs north or west.
On the down side we only appear to have one lux, but you can't have everything
andvruss, how close do you like to build your cities? Three squares west or 4 NW look good for the second site.
We also need to take a quick look to the south to see if there is anything there or room for a couple of cities down there
AndrewN
Prince
Looks like Corrado and I posted at the same time. Nice to see great minds think alike
Nice to see I'm a "great mind!"
The only problem I see with three squares west is that there's no access to shielded grassland until it expands, which will take a while. That's why I recommended going one south of that- then you have an SG, and the city can hit 6F/4S/2C at 2 pop without any improvements.
For future reference, the coastal hills 2 north of the wheat is also a decent city- 2 SG in immediate access and +1 commerce for coastal. But I think we're better off keeping to the rivers for the food bonus- an extra food is almost equivalent to having a Granary in smaller towns.
The only problem I see with three squares west is that there's no access to shielded grassland until it expands, which will take a while. That's why I recommended going one south of that- then you have an SG, and the city can hit 6F/4S/2C at 2 pop without any improvements.
For future reference, the coastal hills 2 north of the wheat is also a decent city- 2 SG in immediate access and +1 commerce for coastal. But I think we're better off keeping to the rivers for the food bonus- an extra food is almost equivalent to having a Granary in smaller towns.
AndrewN
Prince
You're right. I sometimes forget you get 2f/1s no matter where you settle. Plus your site is on the same side of the river as Amsterdam. My site you have to cross the river twice
I like it
. And there sould be enough room for another city between this one and the 4NW cityInitial thoughts:
I guess I should wait until more land is discvoered until I make a dot map. However:
1 tile SE of the mountain a couple tiles from Amsterdam looks like a good spot.
Also, settling on the hill west of the dyes might be good. But we may want to settle on the plain grassland, because this area is rich in food, but a little lacking in raw shields.
I guess I should wait until more land is discvoered until I make a dot map. However:
1 tile SE of the mountain a couple tiles from Amsterdam looks like a good spot.
Also, settling on the hill west of the dyes might be good. But we may want to settle on the plain grassland, because this area is rich in food, but a little lacking in raw shields.
Well, if you settle on the grassland NE of the hill, once the city expands to a 2-tile radius, you'll be able to reach the hills to the NE, meaning that city will be very productive even if we chop down all of the forest around it.
I was hinting at that as a secondary option, but I think that would be better, although there would be some overlap with our captial. I am not a perfectionist, and I like to build cities because of situation and resources rather than mathematical equation.
So I think settling on the grassland NE of that hill would be profitable.
Okay, here's my dotmap. (I *think*. I'm new to this whole uploading images thing.)
The Red dot is, IMO, our best second city site. While there's overlap with Amesterdam, it's only 3 tiles, and there's plenty of other space for Amsterdam to work with before Sanitation shows up.
The Yellow dot is second-best- it has the same food bonus and access to SG and forest, but it doesn't have the Dye bonus and expands us towards the tundra rather than towards space our enemies will soon settle.
The Blue dot will be a nice city some day, but not as nice as either Red or Yellow.
The two Green dots seem to be a good spot for another city- Sugar acting as an SG. It also gets us closer to that river going through the Plains, which we'll also want to settle on (remember that on the river, we'll have 3 food, so sucking up an unirrigated Plain doesn't hurt us. Notice also that there's a hint of Flood Plain in the dark (1 W, 2 NW of the Light Green dot), and Irrigated Desert acts like irrigated Plains for us Agricultural folk.
There are probably lots of good lands around the Cattle, too, so we should explore down there to get a good idea of what we can grab.
The Red dot is, IMO, our best second city site. While there's overlap with Amesterdam, it's only 3 tiles, and there's plenty of other space for Amsterdam to work with before Sanitation shows up.
The Yellow dot is second-best- it has the same food bonus and access to SG and forest, but it doesn't have the Dye bonus and expands us towards the tundra rather than towards space our enemies will soon settle.
The Blue dot will be a nice city some day, but not as nice as either Red or Yellow.
The two Green dots seem to be a good spot for another city- Sugar acting as an SG. It also gets us closer to that river going through the Plains, which we'll also want to settle on (remember that on the river, we'll have 3 food, so sucking up an unirrigated Plain doesn't hurt us. Notice also that there's a hint of Flood Plain in the dark (1 W, 2 NW of the Light Green dot), and Irrigated Desert acts like irrigated Plains for us Agricultural folk.
There are probably lots of good lands around the Cattle, too, so we should explore down there to get a good idea of what we can grab.
Cuivienen
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2003
- Messages
- 8,011
We'll also want to go for that spot two west of the yellow dot -- lots of Bonus Grass and a Cow. It should probably come before the blue dot, as we know the Germans aren't too close to the north.
I think we should also consider a Writing-Philosophy gambit. As long as we don't trade Writing away too quickly, we should get Philosophy before the AI gets there. The AI prefers Ceremonial Burial, Pottery, Masonry, Bronze Working, Iron Working, etc.
Anyway, I'll be playing tonight.
I think we should also consider a Writing-Philosophy gambit. As long as we don't trade Writing away too quickly, we should get Philosophy before the AI gets there. The AI prefers Ceremonial Burial, Pottery, Masonry, Bronze Working, Iron Working, etc.
Anyway, I'll be playing tonight.
Hey, sudden realization- aren't there only 38 turns from 10 AD to 500 AD? (10 AD - 250 AD @20 yrs. each = 13; 260 AD - 500 AD @ 10 yrs. ea = 25)
If we have 20 years of war, that only leaves 19 years of peace, which means re-declaring in 500 AD breaks all of our treaties.
I see three options:
1.) Be treaty-breakers and accept the penalties. (As a usual warmonger, I'm not unhappy with this.)
2.) Keep at war with everyone from 10 AD to 1200 AD (nasty, but the true test of Devilish Dutchness).
3.) Declare war in 30 BC instead, then make peace with everyone on exactly 300 AD, for 20 years of peace before the next round of nastiness. (Interesting, as we may have to take peace before we're ready.)
Andvruss? Any opinions on what feels best for the scenario you envisioned?
Oh, and as far as tech goes- all that matters to me is that we get Monarchy for our government, and do that quickly. We'll need Monarchy for the massive wars, and we'll want to lose the Despotic penalties so that *all* of our cities get +1 food, not just the ones that are irrigated.
If we have 20 years of war, that only leaves 19 years of peace, which means re-declaring in 500 AD breaks all of our treaties.
I see three options:
1.) Be treaty-breakers and accept the penalties. (As a usual warmonger, I'm not unhappy with this.)
2.) Keep at war with everyone from 10 AD to 1200 AD (nasty, but the true test of Devilish Dutchness).
3.) Declare war in 30 BC instead, then make peace with everyone on exactly 300 AD, for 20 years of peace before the next round of nastiness. (Interesting, as we may have to take peace before we're ready.)
Andvruss? Any opinions on what feels best for the scenario you envisioned?
Oh, and as far as tech goes- all that matters to me is that we get Monarchy for our government, and do that quickly. We'll need Monarchy for the massive wars, and we'll want to lose the Despotic penalties so that *all* of our cities get +1 food, not just the ones that are irrigated.
I think the green spots should go 1 NW, on the river.
I'd also like a city on the spot our warrior is now.
The location near the cow I would move 1 extra W, (so: W W W of yellow). It is on a lake, normal grassland, has cow + 3BG in the first 9 shields and an extra 3BG when it expands.
It is very possible that some civs won't make peace after 20 turns, or a very unproffitable to us. That rules out Corrado's option 3. I usually don't break treaties, but I don't want to stay in war from 0AD to 1000 AD.
But if I understand the rules fully; we must declare war in 0AD, 500 AD etc. on every civ we aren't at war with, and have to stat in war for at least 20 turns. So if we declare war in 0AD, stay in war till 550 AD, we have met both conditions and can make peace. Is this true Andvruss ?
I'd also like a city on the spot our warrior is now.
The location near the cow I would move 1 extra W, (so: W W W of yellow). It is on a lake, normal grassland, has cow + 3BG in the first 9 shields and an extra 3BG when it expands.
It is very possible that some civs won't make peace after 20 turns, or a very unproffitable to us. That rules out Corrado's option 3. I usually don't break treaties, but I don't want to stay in war from 0AD to 1000 AD.
But if I understand the rules fully; we must declare war in 0AD, 500 AD etc. on every civ we aren't at war with, and have to stat in war for at least 20 turns. So if we declare war in 0AD, stay in war till 550 AD, we have met both conditions and can make peace. Is this true Andvruss ?
Cuivienen
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2003
- Messages
- 8,011
I've started my turns -- and that spot near the cow should be a fast priority. The Egyptians are just beyond the chain of lakes there, so we'll really want to hold the eastern edge of the lakes. Since their first city ws in our direction, we stand a good chance of getting there first, but too far and the spot will be Egyptian.
I think that your interpretation, Rik Meleet, is a correct, if rather sneaky, one. A lot of our wars will be fake wars, anyway, especially in the first and second bouts of war.
I think that your interpretation, Rik Meleet, is a correct, if rather sneaky, one. A lot of our wars will be fake wars, anyway, especially in the first and second bouts of war.
Concerning the very nice dotmap Corrado has provided, I had the same thought about the red and yellow dots. The green also looks agreeable.
Concerning the 0AD, 500AD, etc. warring, I think that if we I'll push back the 2nd warring time from 500AD to 550AD (or whenever the 40 turns between this frame is up). Other suggesstions would be appreciated though for consideration....
Concerning the 0AD, 500AD, etc. warring, I think that if we I'll push back the 2nd warring time from 500AD to 550AD (or whenever the 40 turns between this frame is up). Other suggesstions would be appreciated though for consideration....
Rik- good point on moving NW of the light green, onto the river- what we lose in a sugar we make up for in the city proper having an extra food.
As for the cattle- keep in mind that all it gives us at this point is an extra food, which we'll get just by building a city on a river. Once it's irrigated or we're in Monarchy/Republic, it'll be worth more, but at the start any city near it will be no better off than one on a river, and hampered by corruption given the distance.
As for the cattle- keep in mind that all it gives us at this point is an extra food, which we'll get just by building a city on a river. Once it's irrigated or we're in Monarchy/Republic, it'll be worth more, but at the start any city near it will be no better off than one on a river, and hampered by corruption given the distance.
