Axemen over Swordsmen

Dusty909

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
15
When I am building up units for wartime, I have been building axemen instead of swordsmen for the most part. The reason for this, is that swordsmen are really easy to defend against. An axeman defending in a city gets a 50% bonus against them, whereas it would be 1:1 if another axeman was defending. An axeman's strength of 5 is still more than adequate to take out non-melee units as well such as archers and whatnot.

Anyone else doing the same? Comments?
 
i hate not having atleast even odds and horse archers would annoy me with that strat. Throwing 5 str axemen with no bonus against 6 horse archers would result in alot of lost units.

Defending doesnt work to much for me i hate getting pillaged. For most empires in regards to swordsmen i would prolly beeline for horse archers instead. The fast moving 6 str archers will let you have most of your power massed in places almost twice as fast in general. This results in more wins, less pillaging, and less lost units.

Youll want to keep a couple of units around that can handle the occasional spearmen that come into empire.

Defending a city is a last resort imo. You do it when your afraid you dont have the numbers to repell the other guy. Otherwise you swarm his stack and reduce it before it can pillage.
 
Horse archers are another offense unit I don't build very often. Again, the reason is that they are so easy to defend against. One defending spearmen in a city can easily take on 3+ horse archers. I do bring a couple horse archers along usually though just to scout ahead and/or pillage some improvements.
 
I use axemen more and bring a stack of swordsmen along with them because once the axemen destroy the other axemen defending the city, I can use a better unit to take down the archers.
 
Use swordsmen if you intend to attack cities. Their 10% extra against cities helps a lot. Most cities are defended by archers anyway. Take a few axemen with you if you're afraid that they might have axemen. In any case, take out their metal supplies first. Then, your swordsmen should have it easy when the only thing the opponent can produce is archers. Or better yet, use Praetorians!
 
Obviously this just depends on what you expect to fight against. The AI is generally easy to predict; if you're up against humans, though, life gets a lot more interesting...

Or, as Zombie69 said, you could just play the Romans and pwn everyone.
 
I find Axemen are what I use most also, mainly because I attack early enough where I won't have Swordsmen or Horse Archers and I'll attack at the weakest points, the idea is to cripple your rival in such a way as they never get any chance to pose a threat.

Phase 1 - 3500ish BC steal worker pillage ALL AI improvements. Call for Peace, with the AI crippled it might take 4-5 turns from when you move your unit out of their borders but they'll shortly go for it.

Phase 2 - Stack of 4-6 Axemen depending on their production capability round about 2000BC you should have at least 1-2 other cities up and they might have 1-2 themselves, likely only 1 though their third settler is probably being built! With your earlier war, you already have their territory maps, you should know where their copper/iron/horse resources are, they won't have had much (if any) chance to build Axemen or Horse Archers. It's unlikely you'll have Horse Archers or Swordsmen up yourself, but you should have a stronger military as they once again turned to the building path in order to keep up with you...and most likely they only have archers up to defend with maybe some warriors, so you take all but one of their cities, it's pretty much your choice which one to leave standing, but I'd start by denying them copper/horses/iron if you know where they are. 2 Axemen per archer is enough to get the job done, you'll likely lose you first and second Axemen but it's doubtful the Archers didn't sustain serious injuries to be mopped up by your remiaining 2. If you want to be sure bring 3-1 odds, no way they can beat those odds. Pillage everything they have consolidate and Sue for Peace take whatever you can, but you prolly don't have Alphabet or Currency yet so can't take either his gold or Techs, preferably try to have Alphabet about this time so you can grab one or two Techs before Peace otherwise anything he knows that you don't dies with him.

The important thing here is you'll likely now have 5-6 cities, a nice chunk of land all your worker techs researched and about 3-4 workers (2-3 of which the now permanently crippled AI built for you) Unless another AI went to war this early you'll have 2-3 city lead, a decent military, well developed land and likely the Tech lead. You can take out the next nearest AI or go builder from here, but you've taken a large enough lead to sustain you through to the end of the game.

Phase 3 (don't want to keep an angry neighbor around to ruin your rep with any other as of yet unknown civs) - In his current state there's nothing he can raise to save him from your next and final push, you don't even need Swordsmen just your battle Hardened City Raider 2/3 Axemen along with some reinforcing unexperienced Axemen for your initial losses to weaken his Archers then attack with your experienced Axemen to finish the job. Even if you wait until the turn of the AD's it's doubtful the AI will recover to the point of Swordsmen especially if you completed phase 2 strategically denying him resources. He won't get to Feudalism in time to ever pose any serious threat to your Axemen, you just need to bring 2-1 odds...
 
Dog of Justice said:
Obviously this just depends on what you expect to fight against. The AI is generally easy to predict; if you're up against humans, though, life gets a lot more interesting...

Or, as Zombie69 said, you could just play the Romans and pwn everyone.


Yeah I am referring more towards multiplayer games against other people... Yes, the AI is very predictable and would not think to build up a large stack of axeman defenders.
 
It's pity that AI could never adjust to build his counter force as well as a human player.
 
Why not? Blizzard's AIs do (take Stracraft for example). It's an easy thing to program into an AI; i don't know why they didn't bother to do it.
 
Calculation shows that swordsmen are better than axemen when attacking axemen provided only that the defending axeman is in a city. The plus one strength and +.10 city attack make a big difference.
 
eg577 said:
Calculation shows that swordsmen are better than axemen when attacking axemen provided only that the defending axeman is in a city. The plus one strength and +.10 city attack make a big difference.

The axeman would still have the advantage:

Swordsman vs. Axeman * (1 + (melee bonus - disadv from swordsmen city raider bonus)
6 vs. 5 * (1 + (.50 - .10)) = 6 vs. 7

That doesn't include city bonuses or fortify bonuses the axeman probably already have too.
 
In a recent game I Played (Emperor lvl), Louis had a HUGE stack of axemen. Although, I think this is due to the fact that he didn't have iron in his lands.. it seems that if the AI have access to swordsmen, they just ignore axemen completely. I noticed a trait they have that seems to indicate that the AI only think of axemen as offensive units and not defensive units. I noticed that once they had enough axemen in the city, they will move that entire stack out of the city to go on the offensive.... leaving the city with nothing but archers and spearmen. I think an easy fix here would be just to patch the AI to think of them as both defense and offense... I'm pretty sure it's doable, since they seem to use Rifles/Infantries for dual duty.
 
Yup Axemen are better at attacking other Axemen in cities..

Regular Axeman strength 5 + 50% vs melee bonus. Final strength 7.5

Regular Swordsman stength 6 + 10% vs city bonus. Final stength 6.6

With City I promotion which adds 20%

Axeman 7.5 + 1 = 8.5 strength
Swordsman 6.6 + 1.2 = 7.8 strength

With City II promotion which adds 25%

Axeman 8.5 + 1.25 = 9.75 strength
Swordsman 7.8 + 1.5 = 9.30 strength

With City III promotion which adds 30%

Axeman 9.75 + 1.5 = 11.25 strength
Swordsman 9.3 + 1.8 = 11.10 strength

..........

A swordsman will never be better than an Axeman against other Axeman defending in cities.

The AI is smart enough to put Axemen defenders whenever you choose to use a swordsman to attack. There usually is one axemen hanging around with a spearmen and a couple archers in a city.

The best option is to use Axemen to take out archer defenders and then the axemen defenders.
The AI always choose to use archers first against axemen attackers and then any left over axemen defenders.

Once you clear all the archers and axemen defenders then you can use swordsmen to do cleanup.

I rather use units who need exp for promotions to do cleanup work.

..........


For Ancient units I've been using Catapults, Axemen and then Spearmen in that order against cities.

Every unit has a weakness, but I rarely see chariots defending in AI cities vs Catapults.

Catapults are stength 5 which is pretty even footing vs any type of defender. Axemen are also strength 5 so catapults are equally powerful. The bonus you get with catapults is that they have a good chance to withdraw from combat if they are gonna lose and they do collateral damage to other units in the city. Even if you lose a catapult you've done some decent damage to most of the units in a city. This virtually guarantees a victory if you followup with more catapults.

I'll use axemen and spearmen to finish off defenders once every catapults get a shot in first.
 
The problem of course is that the AI pretty much always has multiple units. And, the best defender is auto chosen.

So, you send your Axeman up to kill his Axeman, but whup, your Axeman ends up fighting the longbowman and gets his axe handed to him. ;)

This is genuinely a no-win situation most of the time. If you sent in the Swordsman first, he would fight the Axeman of course, leaving the Longbowman.

Wodan
 
Yep. pretty much defeats the purpose of bringing specialized units in a war. a solid unit coupled with siege will do fine, add in a small stack of mobile horsemen to pickoff any stragglers.
 
I agree with the Axeman. The only time I would build swordsmen is if the enemy has no copper or iron and just a bunch of archers. Then I would load up on swords and sweep through their cities a little faster.
 
It's true that axemen are a great counter for swordsmen. That's why, if you're planning on moving the swordsmen in, it should only be to take a city, and only if they have backup from axemen of their own.
 
My bad, I did all the calculations (for all 3 cases of the defender bonus) but had the axeman bonus vs melee as +25%.
 
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