Babylon Contrast Journal, All Welcome

[Milae]

Welcome all, for those new the idea of this is to all play the same start and then see how everyone's different decisions affect the game.

Whether your game goes perfectly or terribly it would be great if you could all give some summary of how it went with photos/text.

Please remember to use the insert... spoiler

Spoiler :

Like this

function when discussing yours or others' games so that people can play theirs without future knowledge.

We will be playing as Babylon who have bonuses to science, gold investments and defense, and a nice unique unit, so hopefully many different approaches will be viable and that will make for some good comparisons.

Here is the start:

Here is what you will need to join in:
Vox Populi version 5-28: Download here. Use the default version in the installer.
Alternative Difficulty for VP v4: Download here. Make sure it is also activated in MODS.
Save Game: Nebuchadnezzar II_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save Place into My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ModdedSaves\single folder.

Game Settings:
@DeAnno 's Terra Oval Map: Available here. Download not required to play.
Deity difficulty
8 civs, standard size, standard speed
No ancient ruins
No events
No tech trading
Quick combat, quick movement

The first comparison point will be either when you found a religion (before you pick the beliefs) or if you do not found then when the last (5th) religion is founded. People can then choose whether to continue their own save or someone else's.

Try to have yours done by Tuesday 1st June as we will likely move on to playing the next part after that.

 

[Milae]

Btw I did a newer version of the difficulty Mod v4 with the 5-28 changes. It is savegame compatible and reduces the crazy war weariness production penalty so you may wanna use it.

 

[Robert E Me]

Looking to try this! Probably going to get wrecked tho Any general comments on Ancient era policy for Babylon? I hear Progress is good? Is it mainly for the early boost to get to Writing and Construction faster?

 

[stii]

Looking to try this! Probably going to get wrecked tho Any general comments on Ancient era policy for Babylon? I hear Progress is good? Is it mainly for the early boost to get to Writing and Construction faster?

I'd suggest authority if you are worried about getting wrecked. The AI tends to be pretty aggressive towards players if they fall behind, weirdly it doesn't seem to count military that much it is more tech and general stuff. Babylon has multiple defensive abilities so if they do it will be easier to defend.

General advice would be to try and build cities on hill and in good defensive positions. the AI will settle towards you if you leave any space so it is often better to settle towards them first, 4-5 hexs out will mean you aren't too close but also won't leave them room for a closer city.

 

[DeAnno]

I played on 5-24 as when I started I wasn't sure if 5-28 was compatible.

Spoiler :

I decided to settle on the Silver hill after some scouting revealed the 4th silver. This brought to mind the idea of working all 4 silver in range and settling my second city on the 5th somewhere outside to get a monopoly. The downside of this settle is early prospects are a bit poor, and after going mining first I decided that going for Pyramids was too risky and difficult; this was further encouraged by being relatively inland and separated from everyone but Assyria, which on Oval can mean massive barbarian waves. Mining first did let me sell my city tile Silver to Russia for 5 gpt, so there was that.

I go trapping after that thinking that the land seems likely to reveal deer nearby or maybe a bison and boost up the weakness of the immediate land; no dice there. Without a firm idea of my religious prospects yet I rush a shrine then start on a warrior, planning to use the free Progress worker as I build an army to defend myself with. I could've done something similar with Authority, and maybe should've, but didn't want to commit to that much long term fighting with a lot of the nearby lands empty.

After trapping was a bust I went for Pottery to get the Settler as I built another warrior. I also bought the desert next to both distant silver hoping I would grow into one naturally, but even though I got purple outlines for both it went for the floodplains instead. Quite sad.

I had thoughts of using my three warriors to tribute Quebec City, but before I could a tide of Brutes came from the West and I had to fight them off. they came in staggered but there were four altogether, with two warriors instead of three it could've been bad. As it was they win the fight handily as my Progress worker mines the silver. When they were finally done they did go up to Quebec City and extract 50 food in tribute, doing it injured because it wasn't too far to move.

After that tribute I have the plan of also tributing Singapore to bounce out a second settler very quickly, and scoot my Warriors to the northeast along with my pathfinder to help. This was kind of a risky move as there was a barb hut further east, north of the lake where I wanted to settle on the silver, and a Handaxe did eventually come down through the desert to harass my capital and threaten my settler's line. I had money to buy a 4th warrior though, so I kept him in line.

While all this was going on I ended up buying both silver hill tiles because they made my settler quicker and didn't look like they'd grow in time. My worker was also a little slower than I hoped and it was clear he'd only finish the last mine something like 5 turns after the settle. It wasn't ideal to get the monopoly turn 50 but I'd have to take it. I eventually settle my 2nd city on the silver tile on the north side of the lake. Just after pushing out the settler I did in fact tribute Singapore for 70 hammers and get a quick second settler out, aiming him northwest. Why northwest?

My pantheon came in about here, and I was a little stumped. Progress is notorious for losing religion, and I almost gave up on it and just took GoAC. However I noticed there was a huge concentration of tundra resources in the northwest, and that my capital and planned second city both had a little bit of tundra resources, 2 silver and 2 deer respectively. I decided given the strength of Stars and Sky it was enough, and my third settler quickly took the spot, just as Assyria took a spot nearby to the south.

As for tech I'd been paranoid about Assyria and wanted to defend myself quickly. I detoured for Calendar first to work the Perfume, but then went for Construction and wanted Mathematics after that, before Trade and Writing. And even as I was doing this, you can see me building my fifth and final warrior. All this military investment was useful at times but also a boondoggle at others.

I started out rewarded for my warriors as two new encampments appeared to either side; I ended up killing both, the western one with Assyrian help, and got a lot of quest GGP for it. Soon after this I built walls, but I didn't really have the population to staff them; my tiles were too good, and in my capital too food poor. The walls did have an effect though (maybe); everyone was looking to be my friend, including even Assyria right before I got to Mathematics.

Suddenly at peace with the world I wasn't sure what to do with my new ability to train bowmen and only built a single one. I also tried to build the Roman Forum at my third city which was becoming super powerful and could do it in only 8 turns, but it only half-finished before being taken. I figured that Stone+Marble had made it a decent culture process at least anyway. I tortured my poor capital to make a 3rd settler and sent him way East, to get another tundra concentration.

At this point I started to stabilize and build upward, making a food route to my capital with trade, claiming more and more tundra resources, and eventually scoring Writing and putting my Academy on the Desert Hill Sheep the second city has. At this time I was pretty unhappy, because Russia has the Luxury pantheon and was buying all my single luxes at exorbitant prices. I could've probably made more money if I'd been a little sharper on the ball but I still made quite a bit, though it did influence me to take the Happy policy 5th and wait on the Culture policy, due to already making culture hand over fist with both Stars and Sky and the Tundra monopoly.

I start building another settler for a 5th city in my desert city, but Russia is getting explorative to the south. I tell her not to settle near me when I see this and she agrees, but she still plants it right there, making plans to put a city in that area less attractive. The settler could go for the 3 deer + iron on the tundra to the north instead though, though the spot is kind of silly cramped by CS and has little future after those resources.

I end up popping the prophet on turn 95 in the powerful third city, I think there are four religions founded already so moving it would be super risky. With only 14 techs I'm probably behind there, but I'm due to finish Progress on turn 98 or so. The diplomatic situation is quite good, happy hugfest peace everywhere. Militarily I have my walls, 5 spears, and a bowman in the capital, feeling pretty safe at the moment though I should actually build some more bowmen soon.

Overall not a very exciting run, no wonders, no war, last religion, not super efficient or slick, just quietly OK with nice culture. I think someone will probably do better with Progress but this makes for a good insurance policy save I suppose.

EDIT: Taken beliefs:
Veneration (twice), Stupas, Asceticism; Divine Inheritance, Noble Truths, Hero Worship, Apostolic Tradition

 

[stii]

Spoiler game spoilers about deanno's game :

lol I think your cities are in exactly the same places as mine. I guess the pantheon forces it to some degree.

I'll post my full thing in a minute.

 

[stii]

Spoiler my game :

I moved my scout/warrior and spotted the 4th sliver so planned to take all four quickly, so moved onto the silver. Scouting around a bit found a few CS to bash and two silver to the north east. I opened monument shrine warrior as I did seem fairly far from other players giving barbs lots of room to spawn. Sold my silver to someone for 3gpt and used it to buy a worker to connect to another silver quickly. Also stole a worker from a CS as I had a lot of silver to connect.

I went authority as I think it is strongest in general and given this sub mod and the current patch are meant to be harder it seemed best to pick the strongest thing. It mean I cleared a few barb camps pretty easily with two warrior and an archer, so I didn't feel the need to make any more units for a bit. Lots of friendly AIs too, I ended up friends with everyone nearby pretty quickly. I did put some science into mathematics early as a hedge before Siam became my friend.

I went for the tundra pantheon as there was lots of good spots for it and nothing else seemed good, god of the open sky could have been good but Siam took it super early so that wasn't an option.

Got a quick settler and bought up the silver tiles near me so I could start improving them. Got the monopoly by about T50, which seemed about as fast as possible without really cutting corners somewhere.

Desert city went for and got Petra, which was nice. Lots of my cities are all rather high value, the tundra pantheon is pretty powerful with all the clumped deer everywhere. Tried for terracotta army too but the AI like it a lot more recently so I missed it. However Russia has it probably in their capital and they are just asking to get murdered by me, they even have statue of Zeus too!

Founded the 3rd religion on t98, probably orders I guess and something else. Position is pretty good, lots of big powerful cities and plenty of tech, I'm one turn off mathematics and sailing so the picture is a bit misleading.

Nebuchadnezzar II_0098 BC-0425.Civ5Save

 

[DeAnno]

Spoiler :

Yeah these two games are very similar, GP even was born in the same place! You are a bit ahead in tech even accounting for the three turns, I am a bit ahead in culture. You have the southern city, Petra, and an extra 3 pop in your capital though, so I think you're better off, though Authority does start better than Progress in general. I see you were less lucky with your deals but you did manage to sell some horses at a good rate. Your religion is 3 turns later but has less early competition, I wonder what snowballed to cause that.

If nothing else these two saves complement a Progress/Authority comparison well with all the similarity.

 

[stii]

Spoiler :

Yeah these two games are very similar, GP even was born in the same place! You are a bit ahead in tech even accounting for the three turns, I am a bit ahead in culture. You have the southern city, Petra, and an extra 3 pop in your capital though, so I think you're better off, though Authority does start better than Progress in general. I see you were less lucky with your deals but you did manage to sell some horses at a good rate. Your religion is 3 turns later but has less early competition, I wonder what snowballed to cause that.

If nothing else these two saves complement a Progress/Authority comparison well with all the similarity.

Spoiler game spoilers :

Yeah no clue about the religion stuff, CS allies maybe? I could even move my GP if I was willing to give up a bunch of faith, but that doesn't seem worth it.

I think the main thing I'm ahead is the extra pop, although it is hard to judge how useful that is. You got better deals than me but probably not 20 gpt worth, I have to keep more lux to support my extra people. The deal history is a bit useless, I didn't sell any horse for more than a fraction of 1gpt I just used them bundled in with silver to make things up. It is a bit different not caring about connect strats so much. I will even keep this 4 iron and use it to make units!

It is also hard to tell things from a snapshot because while I have slightly more techs and less polices, the reverse is true of our culture and science production. you are producing more science and I'm making more culture.

 

[stii]

Spoiler :

Yeah these two games are very similar, GP even was born in the same place! You are a bit ahead in tech even accounting for the three turns, I am a bit ahead in culture. You have the southern city, Petra, and an extra 3 pop in your capital though, so I think you're better off, though Authority does start better than Progress in general. I see you were less lucky with your deals but you did manage to sell some horses at a good rate. Your religion is 3 turns later but has less early competition, I wonder what snowballed to cause that.

If nothing else these two saves complement a Progress/Authority comparison well with all the similarity.

Spoiler spoiler :

Turns out there was a lot less of a religion gap than it looked because two AI also founded on the same turn as me . Did mean I got to pick before them which was nice as the AI likes orders.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler spoiler :

I got the 5th religion on turn 93, using Ancestor Worship. I have 14 techs, including Philosophy, and 5 progress. 6 cities and Petra. My cities are very different than yours since I didn't use the tundra pantheon, I also promised not to forward settle Russia after my 2nd city and plan to honor that.

What an interesting start, I'm unsure what the best place for the capital is. There's no clearly best location, but there are like 8 reasonable options. I figured someone else would pick authority so at the start I wanted to do either tradition or progress. I decided I'd lean in on progress and try a fast-silver monopoly, so I settled on the off-river silver, which has the most gold.

Here's my start after getting the monopoly on turn 48.

Scouted north since I expected CS and I wanted to tribute them. Doing so, along with selling my silver, I was able to invest in monument, shrine, and well. I've invested in most buildings this game and gotten a lot of value from Babylon's UA.



My army sucks but I have friendship with all my direct neighbors. I was really worried about Assyria, who already has chivarly, but he gave me friendship and attacked the huns. I promise my military is normally better than this, but I slacked because I needed to push out settlers to reach enough pop for the scrivener's office quickly. I donated two warriors to a religious CS only for Korea to snipe it from me. I invested a lot in city-states, including getting the scrivener's office quickly, but so far I've struggle to get value.

Interesting map by the way, I've never played this Oval version before. Interested in learning where the last few CS are, will there be islands?

 

[stii]

Spoiler game discussion crazyG's game :

I'm a bit surprised you settled on the flat silver as it gives -1 production over the hill, for just the cost of moving for one turn.

All our games seem pretty similar in terms of AI actions which is nice, last time my Songhai was very different to everyone else's

Map is interesting, I think it the same as normal oval but with a small extra continent off somewhere. This map has worked out that two AI players almost started on their own, although the Huns are so keen on war they sailed across a small sea and settled anyway.

No units is fine with DoF, they AI never breaks them to attack without at least ten turns warning and even that is rare. I think a scout watching them is normally enough to tell, the AI isn't very subtle when it really attacks.

 

[DeAnno]

Spoiler :

The cities on CrazyG's game are really interesting, so tight in, almost like an ICS. Progress does like that I guess, especially with Ancestor Worship. Also he got the Scrivener Office already but his army is so bad, I'm surprised Assyria friended him and even that barbarians didn't make more impact. High risk high reward looks like it paid off there.

I said this before but it might've been missed, this script generates 2 mini-ovals separated by ocean with the rest of the City States on them, they're in the ocean between East and West of the mainland. One is to the North side of that ocean and the other to the South.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler :

The cities on CrazyG's game are really interesting, so tight in, almost like an ICS. Progress does like that I guess, especially with Ancestor Worship. Also he got the Scrivener Office already but his army is so bad, I'm surprised Assyria friended him and even that barbarians didn't make more impact. High risk high reward looks like it paid off there.

I said this before but it might've been missed, this script generates 2 mini-ovals separated by ocean with the rest of the City States on them, they're in the ocean between East and West of the mainland. One is to the North side of that ocean and the other to the South.

Spoiler close cities :

That's my norm for playing progress, primarily because of city connections. Generally I have them built the turn the city goes down to get that science. It's also very good for AI relations if you don't forward settle them, and agree to stop settling near them if they ask.

I did have more military (2 warriors and an archer) and cleared out several barb camps, but I ended up gifting them to CS once my neighbors all friended me.

I'm impressed that Stii has managed to keep up with that science as authority, also that he grew so much without the 3 food per city of progress, overall I'm only about 1 tech ahead. My main advantage is more faith (capital already has a temple) and also slightly better culture. Moving forward this position is excellent for authority, it's a big continent with many neighbors, there will certainly be war.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler game discussion crazyG's game :

I'm a bit surprised you settled on the flat silver as it gives -1 production over the hill, for just the cost of moving for one turn.

All our games seem pretty similar in terms of AI actions which is nice, last time my Songhai was very different to everyone else's

Map is interesting, I think it the same as normal oval but with a small extra continent off somewhere. This map has worked out that two AI players almost started on their own, although the Huns are so keen on war they sailed across a small sea and settled anyway.

No units is fine with DoF, they AI never breaks them to attack without at least ten turns warning and even that is rare. I think a scout watching them is normally enough to tell, the AI isn't very subtle when it really attacks.

Spoiler settling location :

There are a lot of ways to settle this. I'm considering replaying as tradition with a different settle.

I'd probably settle the hill if it had 1 more good tile, like a forest, adjacent to it, or if ancient ruins were on. But it's just floodplain then either grassland/plains. When I settled where I did, I had not revealed the Marble yet, and I figured there was a chance of another silver to the south beyond the river. I work the perfume immediately for the gold, the city itself also gives 2 gold, I invested all 3 of monument-shrine-well.

My spot has 3 good tiles in immediate range, instead of just 1 floodplain. I also like where the borders would grow, settle on the hill and you'll 'waste' an expansion growing to the perfume. I saw that you could settle with 4 silver but knew the borders would take forever to grow.

Also it's wild how much earlier the AI got religions in my game.

 

[stii]

Spoiler settling location :

There are a lot of ways to settle this. I'm considering replaying as tradition with a different settle.

I'd probably settle the hill if it had 1 more good tile, like a forest, adjacent to it, or if ancient ruins were on. But it's just floodplain then either grassland/plains. When I settled where I did, I had not revealed the Marble yet, and I figured there was a chance of another silver to the south beyond the river. I work the perfume immediately for the gold, the city itself also gives 2 gold, I invested all 3 of monument-shrine-well.

My spot has 3 good tiles in immediate range, instead of just 1 floodplain. I also like where the borders would grow, settle on the hill and you'll 'waste' an expansion growing to the perfume. I saw that you could settle with 4 silver but knew the borders would take forever to grow.

Also it's wild how much earlier the AI got religions in my game.

Spoiler more settling stuff :

The issue is by settling on flat silver you are losing a full production. So even if I have to work a 2f title (which I did) it is the same as you working a 2f1p title for you. So the forests aren't good tiles. And with a few border pops you are back up to a full production behind again. The forests are all 1/2 titles as well and I'd rather not work them early anyway, and if you did I can work the flat silver for 1/1/1 which is better.

The only real advantage is you can build a well, which is pretty powerful.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler more settling stuff :

The issue is by settling on flat silver you are losing a full production. So even if I have to work a 2f title (which I did) it is the same as you working a 2f1p title for you. So the forests aren't good tiles. And with a few border pops you are back up to a full production behind again. The forests are all 1/2 titles as well and I'd rather not work them early anyway, and if you did I can work the flat silver for 1/1/1 which is better.

The only real advantage is you can build a well, which is pretty powerful.

Spoiler even more settlin' stuff :

It's -1 but +1. Generally 1 is worth 2, so it's only the hill is really only 0.5 ahead to start. The flat settle works the perfume for 2 per turn and starts at 8 per turn total. You also lose some by delaying settling a turn too.

In practice I think the flat is actually ahead in , but ends up being behind in since no immediate floodplain, and since one day both will work the other silver.

I completed both monument and shrine using Babylon's investment bonus, so that 0.5 wouldn't impact first social policy or pantheon timings. I think the flat settle is probably slightly ahead in both of those.

As exactly Babylon with the efficient gold, I still like the flat settle, at least until considering the baths.

 

[stii]

Spoiler even more settlin' stuff :

It's -1 but +1. Generally 1 is worth 2, so it's only the hill is really only 0.5 ahead to start. The flat settle works the perfume for 2 per turn and starts at 8 per turn total. You also lose some by delaying settling a turn too.

In practice I think the flat is actually ahead in , but ends up being behind in since no immediate floodplain, and since one day both will work the other silver.

I completed both monument and shrine using Babylon's investment bonus, so that 0.5 wouldn't impact first social policy or pantheon timings. I think the flat settle is probably slightly ahead in both of those.

As exactly Babylon with the efficient gold, I still like the flat settle, at least until considering the baths.

Spoiler even more settlin :

I think the problem here is that how settling works is a bit confusing.

Yeah it is a bit closer than I think, maybe the well pushes it over the edge. Along with Babylon's ability. I just hate giving up the early production.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Spoiler My neighbours :

Interesting how y'all have friendly relationships with your neighbours, even with only a few military units. In my game I got DOWed early on (turn 55ish) by Assyria who then bribed Siam, Byzantium and Russia into a war with me, despite me having a decent sized army and not doing anything to piss them off (DOWed by Assyria when I had 2 cities, so it wasn't because of overexpansion)). Also, in this version the AI seems to be very reluctant to make peace, I've been at war with both Assyria and Siam for over 30 turns, both warscore 0 and still they refuse to negotiate for peace.

 

[Milae]

Did mine on a livestream:

Wouldn't say it went particularly well but ended up in a decent position.

Spoiler :

Save is from turn 93 but last religion actually went on turn 92, I just didn't notice because I was in war-mode.

Initially I actually wanted to try tradition (more just for comparison than actually thinking it was best) but I settled in place and quickly realised Pyramids were going to be very late and there were 3 barb camps around me so just went Authority.

Started building some archers and cleared out 3 camps pretty fast. Then went North and struggled to get some decent tributes on city states. Declared war on Quebec to steal a worker and then kill a warrior to increase tribute amount. Got about 50% in the end I think.

Built Petra in Babylon and then ended up walking around and getting beaten to a settle by Assyria. I'm actually glad that happened though because I ended up settling in a better place and am actually friends with Assyria now. Monopoly could've been a bit earlier though.

By the time I got to Pantheon Earth Mother was gone. I did consider Stars and Sky but my Capital didn't have any tundra and I wanted to get the Classical Techs ASAP.

Went for Writing first with the hope that Terra Cotta would go late and I could still get it. Siam became a very juicy target though when I realised they had a religion with Open Sky Pantheon and many forests around their city. Ended up going for Mathematics first so I could get Bowmen and start the war, they built GL so need to be quick before they get to Medieval. Terra Cotta was gone by the time I got to Masonry.

Misjudged my attack a little so lost a Bowman but I think if I attack more from the North and build some roads I will have good success, also they will weaken over time and am making a few more bowmen to get up to force limit. I think I have a good chance of taking this city at least before Medieval, at which point Sukothai is open. Also got a lovely city state mission to take Muang Saluang. Here is the situation in Siam:

Just started on Ankor Wat in Babylon which should have a good chance of success from what I've seen. I think from now I just go bottom of the tech tree and get particularly Swordsmen to tank.