Babylon, Korea or the Maya?

[Peacemongerer]

Best scientifc civ in G&K? I used to think Babylon in vanilla, then I played as Korea in G&K and thought they were the best, especially after the GS changes. Now I'm playing as the Maya and loving the Pyramids. I can't decide. Anybody else got an opinion?

 

[smallfish]

I would say the Koreans. Their Turtle Ships are now naval Longswords, and they have one of the best Medieval siege units (until it gets nerfed).

 

[thadian]

korea for tall and maya for wide - i think maya wide can even beat tall korea.

 

[alpaca]

Interestingly, the Long Count will mean the Maya get fewer GS than other civs because their "free" GP makes their production of GS slower.

As for Babylon vs Korea, I can't really make a strong case either way (and in fact haven't played with Babs in G&K yet). I should note that settling your GS increases the amount of research you make from research agreements quite significantly for a smaller empire. On the other hand, the kinda free bulbs for Korea are quite strong and their base output is better.

 

[booyachris]

With "messenger of the gods" pantheon, the Mayan civ can get out to a roaring science start with 5 or 6 base cities before turn 80. After that you gotta slow down a little and build up. I had a six city spread with the maya earlier this week on emperor. 5 of my six cities were next to mountains. I managed to have my science up to 500 beakers per turn and it was turn 190. Ended up with 12 cities and a science victory on turn 277. That waseasily my quickest science victory on emperor standard speed.

The best part about Pacal and the Mayan is TIMING for the long count. Timing counldnt dictate more that you pick a great admiral first or second, allowing you sea travel well before you reach astronomy. A great prophet doesn't hurt out of the gates to finish or start spreading your religion. The great artist is usually best saved for last so you can pop a golden age fo extra hammers and gold late-game. The great general couldn't be better at grabing that luxury 5 tiles away from your city. Obviously the great scientist and great engineer are the optimal choices. The great engineer selection timimg is always the hardest for me. I usually save him for the later, harder-to-build wonders.

That being said, I haven't tried korea since the expansion. They are probably the best for staight science.

 

[Adjuvant]

I really think Mayans are "built" for religion, but I agree, religion in G&K can and will often, with the right choice, propagate decent science accumulation.

Also I agree with "tall Korea" vs "wide Mayans". I haven't played a "wide Korea" and I don't think I want to. I'm not saying sit at 4 cities all game, of course. I haven't played a "tall Mayans" but I imagine I'd be losing the early benefit of 5 or 6 pyramids. Thing is, with "wide science Mayans" on higher difficulty you need to be isolated, else it takes quite a bit of shuffling to get that pyramid/library/monument in every city while you're trying to live.

 

[That nerdy kid]

In my latest Maya game I got Prophet first (started religion), then used Hagia Sophia to get the second with a great engineer.

 

[Naresh]

Korea, 100%. Babylon might get that early free GS, which provides a huge amount of science over the course of a game, and the 50% is good if you can get to the GL quick enough (In my last 3 games I've lost it by 1-3 turns despite gearing everything towards it, even chopping forests down in an attempt to boost production)

Korea gets +2 science PER specialist and a science boost every time a science building is built in the capital. That beats the extra 1-2 scientists that Babylon pumps out.

 

[thadian]

i wouldnt use an engineer to get a prophet, but i would use one to get a scientist.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Maya basicly get the science boost that one korean specialist adds so if Korea can have more specialist runing then mayans got cities they should beat mayans at science. Babylon will baiscly get a hugh advantage in gpp over the others but korea will probably make it upp with specialist but it depends. If you got very few cities Babylon may have the advantage because you can't have that many specialist in one city but you can still get pretty many acadamies. Korea however still gets is other bonus which may allow it to beat Babylon. Another strong science civ that GnK added is Sweden who trives on DOF which you want to have alot of because of RA's. If Sweden can get alot of RA's it may probably be able to get more GS then Babylon.

 

[kamex]

Maya basicly get the science boost that one korean specialist adds so if Korea can have more specialist runing then mayans got cities they should beat mayans at science. Babylon will baiscly get a hugh advantage in gpp over the others but korea will probably make it upp with specialist but it depends. If you got very few cities Babylon may have the advantage because you can't have that many specialist in one city but you can still get pretty many acadamies. Korea however still gets is other bonus which may allow it to beat Babylon. Another strong science civ that GnK added is Sweden who trives on DOF which you want to have alot of because of RA's. If Sweden can get alot of RA's it may probably be able to get more GS then Babylon.

Surely Sweden would need 5 DoFs to break even with Babylons GPP, getting more would be tricky, unless the whole world is one giant peace block, and they still don't get the free GS at writing. (does the Writing GS up the GP cost of the next since G+K btw?)

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Maya basicly get the science boost that one korean specialist adds so if Korea can have more specialist runing then mayans got cities they should beat mayans at science.

But you have to consider that the Mayan science can come much, much earlier in the game.

 

[NukeAJS]

Korea. +2 science from every specialist is good enough as is. Add in basically 3-5 free techs and great scientists (as a result of running so many specialists) ...

 

[zeock9]

Korea is quite ridiculously powerful even after the patch so they wouldn't be able to sell the science building in the capital and rebuild them for another science boost.

Their Medieval era Hwacha retains '200% vs city' promotion if upgraded from catapults, making them the best ranged unit in the game good for everything until replaced by Artillery in Industrial era. That's crazy.

Couple that with science bonus from Messenger of the God pantheon belief and noone can touch Korea going wide early-mid game.

 

[Lyoncet]

Surely Sweden would need 5 DoFs to break even with Babylons GPP, getting more would be tricky, unless the whole world is one giant peace block, and they still don't get the free GS at writing. (does the Writing GS up the GP cost of the next since G+K btw?)

Don't forget that with 5 DoFs, that's also 50% more Great Engineers, Prophets, Merchants, Generals, Admirals, and Artists. Not just Scientists. And the two least useful ones they can still turn into ~150, which definitely helps you with research, either by growing your cities, getting faster policies, etc. and by merit of Scholasticism and possibly Educated Elite. Plus, I've found that DoFs are much easier to make and maintain in G&K, and were peculiarly easy with Sweden, although that may just have been a coincidence.

Korea is quite ridiculously powerful even after the patch so they wouldn't be able to sell the science building in the capital and rebuild them for another science boost.

Their Medieval era Hwacha retains '200% vs city' promotion if upgraded from catapults, making them the best ranged unit in the game good for everything until replaced by Artillery in Industrial era. That's crazy.

I don't think we should be considering obvious bugs in our discussion of who's best, since obvious bugs are the first ones to get fixed. Especially when they're game-breaking.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Korea is quite ridiculously powerful even after the patch so they wouldn't be able to sell the science building in the capital and rebuild them for another science boost.

Their Medieval era Hwacha retains '200% vs city' promotion if upgraded from catapults, making them the best ranged unit in the game good for everything until replaced by Artillery in Industrial era. That's crazy.

Couple that with science bonus from Messenger of the God pantheon belief and noone can touch Korea going wide early-mid game.

Maya can also get messenger of the Gods. And they don't have to wait until even libraries to get their science going. No specialist slots buildings required. Still like Korea though.

 

[Naresh]

Maya can also get messenger of the Gods. And they don't have to wait until even libraries to get their science going. No specialist slots buildings required. Still like Korea though.

Anyone can get messenger of the Gods...
Just happens that Mayans have a slightly better shot at it than others.

Though any game with the Celts or Ethiopia laughs at you and your attempt to bolster your science.

I've played MP games as Ethiopia to take messenger of gods to piss off Mayans, Babylon and Korea (also managed to irritate Germany too, who wanted it)

Half way through the renaissance era all 4 DoW me... I managed to hold out for about 40 turns, but then I was screwed due to overwhelming numbers...

The only reason they cited (Germany had to travel across an ocean, and Mayans across the entire continent) was "You took the pantheon I wanted"

Fun game.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Haha. Yeah, four science just for plopping down a city and making a shrine is pretty harsh.

 

[chazzycat]

Mayans are great but I think in the long run Babylon or Korea would be slightly better. The problem with the Maya is its really hard to get scientists cuz all the free ones boost the cost too much. What they have going for them is the science in the early game, which can snowball if you play it right.

 

[Unthinking Pain]

Mayans are great but I think in the long run Babylon or Korea would be slightly better. The problem with the Maya is its really hard to get scientists cuz all the free ones boost the cost too much. What they have going for them is the science in the early game, which can snowball if you play it right.

Little confused how getting free scientists makes it hard to get scientists.

I mean, I get that taking a scientist from their UA ability ups the cost/time of the next normally generated scientist, but you've still got the first scientist earlier than you would have otherwise.