Babylonian civ

[Zaarin]

Phoenicia, Sumeria, Persia, and Georgia, if indeed there are only eight civs left I would rather we skip out on the levant altogether, because nothing, not the Hittites, not Palmyra, not Armenia are on the same level. Not even Assyria or Babylon or Akkadia if they are presumed to be extensions of Sumeria.

And once again, of all of those civs, only Phoenicia and Palmyra were in the Levant...The Levant ≠ the entire Middle East. The Levant is the western Middle East: Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.

nothing in the region comes close to being as enduringly influential as Phoenicia, Sumeria, Persia, and Georgia...Not even Assyria or Babylon or Akkadia if they are presumed to be extensions of Sumeria.

Sumer is the foundation for every empire in the region, but even so I'd say that both Assyria and Babylon were in the long run more influential. The Sumerians were forgotten, while Babylon remains a byword for decadence to this day. Unlike the Sumerians and Babylons, the Assyrians still exist as a distinct ethnic group. The Assyrians conquered Egypt. Also you forget that the Hittites were the first to use iron weapons on a significant scale, which transformed warfare.

And while I laud the considerations of Nabataea and Palmyra, I don't think we will get any separate Arabic civ.

The Palmyrenes were Aramaeans, not Arabs; the Nabataeans were Arabs. I agree that we will not see another Arabic civilization, but that still doesn't rule out Palmyra.

I don't believe pre-Christian Armenia is necessary, or even preferable. Uraratu is sketchy in historical veracity compared to many other civ's in that area, and many believe may not even be the actual true ancestors of the Armenians, and their biggest standout leader was only famous for being handsome enough to start a war by the son of a spurned "homewrecking cougar" of an Assyrian Queen. Plus, the oldest sovereign nation in the world to adopt Christianity makes their post-conversion history VERY interesting, as well, MUCH more so, in my opinion.

Urartian is not linguistically related to Armenian, but the Urartians are definitely part of the genetic history of modern Armenians. When Indo-European Armenian arrived in Armenia isn't entirely clear, but at the latest it was during the rule or Urartu and it appears that Urartian faded out until it was entirely replaced by Armenian. (I entirely agree with you, though: it would be odd to focus on pre-Christian Armenia when Armenia was the first Christian nation in the world.)

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Let's also keep in mind that Sumeria's ability (Epic Quest: also gains a tribal village reward when capturing a barbarian outpost and may levy city-state units at half the usual gold cost) sounds like it should be another part of Gilgamesh's ability rather than being the Sumerian civ ability.

Granted I am very much an amateur on this so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that the current civ ability is very reflective of Sumeria and I'm even more doubtful that either Babylonia or Assyria would have a similar ability so I don't think either would really infringe on that particular design space.

The closest overlap I can see is that all those civs had Ziggurats and that Babylonia would probably have a similar city list (unless the Babylonians called them by other names?).

Just so I'm clear on this, would there be any issue with officially adding Armenia to the game? I know it's not the same issue as Tibet but I thought there was some controversy with the idea to potentially recreate the Armenian genocide in the game? Obviously if there is no such issue and if we have more spots for civs then I'd like to see Armenia too.

 

[Patine]

Just so I'm clear on this, would there be any issue with officially adding Armenia to the game? I know it's not the same issue as Tibet but I thought there was some controversy with the idea to potentially recreate the Armenian genocide in the game? Obviously if there is no such issue and if we have more spots for civs then I'd like to see Armenia too.

I'm pretty sure Firaxis would not be creating an Armenian civ in the vane or timeline of what it was at the time of the Genocide. Armenian civilization is ancient. By comparison, 1915-1917 is just last week. There are a few supercentenarians left in the world who were toddlers or babies at the time the Genocide occurred. No one alive today or their great-great-great grandparents has personally met the great Armenian Kings, Catholicos, Medieval War heroes, or Cilician Crusaders of old, by FAR.

 

[Jkchart]

Let's also keep in mind that Sumeria's ability (Epic Quest: also gains a tribal village reward when capturing a barbarian outpost and may levy city-state units at half the usual gold cost) sounds like it should be another part of Gilgamesh's ability rather than being the Sumerian civ ability.

Granted I am very much an amateur on this so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm doubtful that the current civ ability is very reflective of Sumeria and I'm even more doubtful that either Babylonia or Assyria would have a similar ability so I don't think either would really infringe on that particular design space.

The closest overlap I can see is that all those civs had Ziggurats and that Babylonia would probably have a similar city list (unless the Babylonians called them by other names?).

Just so I'm clear on this, would there be any issue with officially adding Armenia to the game? I know it's not the same issue as Tibet but I thought there was some controversy with the idea to potentially recreate the Armenian genocide in the game? Obviously if there is no such issue and if we have more spots for civs then I'd like to see Armenia too.

Depends on what they write in the Civilopedia. The Armenian Genocide is a very very touchy subject. Of course, if you gloss over it or ignore it, you also provoke outrage. That being said...I think it is less controversial to include Armenia, ancient or otherwise, than say Tibet. Ancient Armenia was a hotbed of rebellion and the creator of numerous kingdoms. Fascinating history.

Really...I'd take Babylon, Assyria, Sumer, Armenia, Georgia...I'd take them all. Give me as many true civilizations and influential empires in one game as you can. The more these games advance, the more additions I see as new mechanics are introduced and old ones fleshed out and streamlined.

 

[Patine]

Depends on what they write in the Civilopedia. The Armenian Genocide is a very very touchy subject. Of course, if you gloss over it or ignore it, you also provoke outrage. That being said...I think it is less controversial to include Armenia, ancient or otherwise, than say Tibet. Ancient Armenia was a hotbed of rebellion and the creator of numerous kingdoms. Fascinating history.

Really...I'd take Babylon, Assyria, Sumer, Armenia, Georgia...I'd take them all. Give me as many true civilizations and influential empires in one game as you can. The more these games advance, the more additions I see as new mechanics are introduced and old ones fleshed out and streamlined.

Also, Armenia is a recognized sovereign nation since 1991, and for millenia prior to Russian and Iranian conquest (Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh is a different issue, yes, but not the main point here), and no one is really trying hard to say it never existed as a separate or distinct culture, but was always a province, or a vassal state, or a dependent periphery, with no independent existence, like China claims about Tibet.

 

[Jkchart]

Also, Armenia is a recognized sovereign nation since 1991, and for millenia prior to Russian and Iranian conquest (Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh is a different issue, yes, but not the main point here), and no one is really trying hard to say it never existed as a separate or distinct culture, but was always a province, or a vassal state, or a dependent periphery, with no independent existence, like China claims about Tibet.

That is not entirely true. Yes, it started as a Satrapy, but after the fall of the Persian Empire and Alexander's empire Armenia became a fully sovereign and quite large Kingdom by the beginning of the second century BC under the Artaxiad Dynasty, and was for about (EDIT) a few centuries until the Romans defeated it. It was still largely independent even as a client kingdom and neither the Romans nor the Persians were able to control it until the Byzantine and Persian empires split it in the 4th century.

Additionally, an Armenian Kingdom was restored in 885 by the Bagratids, and was around until 1045. Armenia has enjoyed several periods of history as an independent realm, and also many as a semi-independent one, and its history as a state can't be reduced to existing only since 1991.

EDIT: Also @Patine I hope I didn't read that last statement wrong of yours, just trying to expound a bit. So I apologize in advance if I did.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm doubtful that the current civ ability is very reflective of Sumeria

Not remotely. Hardly anything about the civ is even vaguely Sumerian, mechanically or aesthetically.

The closest overlap I can see is that all those civs had Ziggurats and that Babylonia would probably have a similar city list (unless the Babylonians called them by other names?).

Actually a lot of the Sumerian city list is in Akkadian, but that could easily be fixed.

Just so I'm clear on this, would there be any issue with officially adding Armenia to the game? I know it's not the same issue as Tibet but I thought there was some controversy with the idea to potentially recreate the Armenian genocide in the game? Obviously if there is no such issue and if we have more spots for civs then I'd like to see Armenia too.

Armenia and Turkey have tense relations, but they mostly solve it by not talking about it. I don't think Turkey would really object to portraying Ancient or Classical Armenia in the game, not like China does with Tibet, which according to them has "always been Chinese." While we're on the subject of Armenia, I'd love to see Mt. Ararat and Little Ararat added as a natural wonder.

EDIT: Also @Patine I hope I didn't read that last statement wrong of yours, just trying to expound a bit. So I apologize in advance if I did.

I think he was saying it was not a subject power like China claims about Tibet, but no worries because extra info is always good.

 

[Patine]

Armenia and Turkey have tense relations, but they mostly solve it by not talking about it. I don't think Turkey would really object to portraying Ancient or Classical Armenia in the game, not like China does with Tibet, which according to them has "always been Chinese." While we're on the subject of Armenia, I'd love to see Mt. Ararat and Little Ararat added as a natural wonder.

Also, it wouldn't just be a one-sided opinion poll of the Turkish government and their approval on the issue, in any case. Regardless of the less pull on Western entertainment markets of the Armenian GOVERNMENT compared to the Turkish one, the Armenian-American community, which often lobbys and advocates for Armenian cultural and national issues and promotion, has some pretty well-known entertainment, scientific, and political figures amongst them. That can't be forgotten, certainly, by far.

 

[Zaarin]

Also, it wouldn't just be a one-sided opinion poll of the Turkish government and their approval on the issue, in any case. Regardless of the less pull on Western entertainment markets of the Armenian GOVERNMENT compared to the Turkish one, the Armenian-American community, which often lobbys and advocates for Armenian cultural and national issues and promotion, has some pretty well-known entertainment, scientific, and political figures amongst them. That can't be forgotten, certainly, by far.

Absolutely. My job has also taught me that there are a lot of Armenian-Americans in journalism and the business sectors.

 

[AntSou]

Open to suggestions.

Civ Ability: Hammurabi's Legacy

- Starts with Code of Laws Inspiration. May choose city's border expansion (Kudurru).

- Double the amount of Antiquity Sites near/around Babylon (Capital). Excavations uncover unique Artifact: The Stele. Provides + 8/ +10 Tourism when placed in another Civ's Museum, to that Civ. (Standard Tourism if placed in a Babylon Museum). When placed in a foreign Civ's museum, the Stele provides +4 Culture yield to that Civ and +4 Culture to Babylon.
(Note: balance not really thought through. The idea is to encourage foreign excavations near Babylon and to give cultural bonuses to Babylon from those excavations and from their unique artefact.)

Infrastructure: Walls of Babylon. Replaces Ancient Wall. Rams are ineffective against it. +5 Tourism with Conservation (even if upgraded).

Walls of Babylon can't be removed. Any City with Walls of Babylon provides +2 Culture to Babylon (NOT the actual owner of the City).

Unique Unit: No idea.
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Leader: Nebuchadnezzar II
Leader Bonus: Garden of Mesopotamia

- If in a game, only Babylon may build Ishtar Gate*.

- Nebuchadnezzar's Palace. Replaces Government Plaza. Does not count towards the limit on the amount of Districts. Gain information regarding Wonder construction for any Wonder which you may build in 6 turns or less in this City.
(Note: Who is building it and how many turns left to completion. If Civ hasn't been met yet, reveal how many turns left only.) (Calculates automatically regardless of actual tiles being worked in this City. IF you can build in 6 turns, you gain the info).

- Gain 1 Diplomatic Victory Point per City conquered, after agreeing to a cease fire. Applies only to the amount of cities retained once cease fire has been agreed. No extra Diplomatic Points if City is lost and reconquered in the present Era and the next.) (Assumes current 25 VP for Diplomatic Victory).

Traits: Likes to build Wonders. Doesn't like Competition for Wonders. Likes to Attack Civs with Wonders... you get the vibe.
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*New Wonder: Ishtar Gate. May Purchase / Upgrade Walls with Gold. (Plus some other stuff)

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Civ Ability: Hammurabi's Legacy

- Starts with Code of Laws Inspiration. May choose city's border expansion (Kudurru).

- Double the amount of Antiquity Sites near/around Babylon (Capital). Excavations uncover unique Artifact: The Stele. Provides + 8/ +10 Tourism when placed in another Civ's Museum, to that Civ. (Standard Tourism if placed in a Babylon Museum). When placed in a foreign Civ's museum, the Stele provides +4 Culture yield to that Civ and +4 Culture to Babylon.
(Note: balance not really thought through. The idea is to encourage foreign excavations near Babylon and to give cultural bonuses to Babylon from those excavations and from their unique artefact.)

Infrastructure: Walls of Babylon. Replaces Ancient Wall. Rams are ineffective against it. +5 Tourism with Conservation (even if upgraded).

Walls of Babylon can't be removed. Any City with Walls of Babylon provides +2 Culture to Babylon (NOT the actual owner of the City).

Unique Unit: No idea.
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Leader: Nebuchadnezzar II
Leader Bonus: Garden of Mesopotamia

- If in a game, only Babylon may build Ishtar Gate*.

- Nebuchadnezzar's Palace. Replaces Government Plaza. Does not count towards the limit on the amount of Districts. Gain information regarding Wonder construction for any Wonder which you may build in 6 turns or less in this City.
(Note: Who is building it and how many turns left to completion. If Civ hasn't been met yet, reveal how many turns left only.) (Calculates automatically regardless of actual tiles being worked in this City. IF you can build in 6 turns, you gain the info).

- Gain 1 Diplomatic Victory Point per City conquered, after agreeing to a cease fire. Applies only to the amount of cities retained once cease fire has been agreed. No extra Diplomatic Points if City is lost and reconquered in the present Era and the next.) (Assumes current 25 VP for Diplomatic Victory).

Traits: Likes to build Wonders. Doesn't like Competition for Wonders. Likes to Attack Civs with Wonders... you get the vibe.
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*New Wonder: Ishtar Gate. May Purchase / Upgrade Walls with Gold. (Plus some other stuff)

- Are Babylonian Walls available to both leaders or Hamburabi exclusive?
- Id' go for Civ ability 'Rivers of Babylon' (or any biblical referrences)
- Don't forget graphic representation issues. what will happen if WALLS OF BABYLON got an upgrade to Medieval Walls and Renaissance ones?
- UU: Either a kind of superior chariot or 'bowman' (from Civ3 remember?)
- I'd also go for Babel Tower as a new wonder

 

[AntSou]

Are Babylonian Walls available to both leaders or Hamburabi exclusive?

I haven't included Hammurabi. Hammurabi's Legacy is just the name of Babylon's Civ Ability. Walls of Babylon are available to any Babylonian Leader.

what will happen if WALLS OF BABYLON got an upgrade to Medieval Walls and Renaissance ones?

Because of how the bonus works, I think the way to handle this would be to preserve some of the towers on Medieval/Renaissance Walls with the Babylon Architectural look.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I like the idea of Nebuchadnezzar’s agenda making him gravitate towards attacking civs with wonders. As if non-wonder-building civs are beneath him or not worth the effort to conquer.

 

[Patine]

I'd also go for Babel Tower as a new wonder

Though you might think otherwise, the Babel Tower had nothing to do with Babylon.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I'll be blunt: I care very little for Babylon as long as Sumer is in the game. One of the two is a necessity, but both is excessive.

Now, as for Assyria: let's see, first kingdom in the world which could be classified as an 'empire', administrative and legislative pioneers, the most dominant mesopotamian power for centuries, innovated ancient warfare, have a well-documented and distinct culture/history. A true civilization which, for some reason only has been included in ONE(!) Civ game, in that installment's second expansion. Bring them back, IMMEDIATELY.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I'm pretty happy to hear that there would be no issue with having Armenia officially in the game! Now if we can get the Hopi in too then I'll be pretty excited!

@AntSou Those are some good suggestions, with some adjustments I could get behind that design for Babylonia.

Though you might think otherwise, the Babel Tower had nothing to do with Babylon.

I suspect that he probably means Etemenanki which would be quite a sight.

I'll be blunt: I care very little for Babylon as long as Sumer is in the game. One of the two is a necessity, but both is excessive.

Now, as for Assyria: let's see, first kingdom in the world which could be classified as an 'empire', administrative and legislative pioneers, the most dominant mesopotamian power for centuries, innovated ancient warfare, have a well-documented and distinct culture/history. A true civilization which, for some reason only has been included in ONE(!) Civ game, in that installment's second expansion. Bring them back, IMMEDIATELY.

I'd prefer both but if forced to pick then I'd agree with Assyria.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Though you might think otherwise, the Babel Tower had nothing to do with Babylon.

.. What? Babel Tower (Burj Babil) is not associated with the city of Babylon or Babylonian? (Babil in Arabs) .

One might say the said tower did not exists. i'd say it did. and it had ziggurat shape and not spirals like what Renaissance painters believed it was. (such architecture was based on an arabian royal mausoleum/tomb in Iraq (Baghdad or i don't know where else))

 

[Patine]

I'll be blunt: I care very little for Babylon as long as Sumer is in the game. One of the two is a necessity, but both is excessive.

Now, as for Assyria: let's see, first kingdom in the world which could be classified as an 'empire', administrative and legislative pioneers, the most dominant mesopotamian power for centuries, innovated ancient warfare, have a well-documented and distinct culture/history. A true civilization which, for some reason only has been included in ONE(!) Civ game, in that installment's second expansion. Bring them back, IMMEDIATELY.

I'd have no problem with Sumer as long as it was a historical Sumer, and not a mythologized pastiche. Are we next to have Theseus or Agamemnon as alternate Greek leaders, or Arthur as an alternate English leader, or Arjuna Pandava as an alternate Indian leader, with all meaningful unique features just as mythologized as Gilgamesh?

 

[Lord Lakely]

I have no qualms whatsoever with Gilgamesh's inclusion, or even his portrayal in Civ 6 . I can accept historical inaccuracies if it improves my gaming experience; Gilgamesh's characterization is convincing enough and that's what I value most. I do wish "Epic Quest" was his LUA though, with Sumer's CUA being something more befitting for Sumeria (but I Sukhitract saw to that in the steam workshop, so...)

 

[Patine]

I have no qualms whatsoever with Gilgamesh's inclusion, or even his portrayal in Civ 6 . I can accept historical inaccuracies if it improves my gaming experience; Gilgamesh's characterization is convincing enough and that's what I value most. I do wish "Epic Quest" was his LUA though, with Sumer's CUA being something more befitting for Sumeria (but I Sukhitract saw to that in the steam workshop, so...)

I'm afraid I remain firmly and staunchly in disagreement.