BADESS World Map Scenraio Mod for AND

[Terxpahseyton]

Okay, if better quality I go with Majapahit.
When I talked about artificial states, I did not have Germany or India on my mind. IMO it adds a lot more flavor to have contact to those than to Goths or the Verdic. And while I don't know about the Verdic, IMO the Goths aren't more traditional than Germany, but simple an older people which used to live in the same area.

OK, I am planning on adding Kazakhs and Uyghurs since there are plenty of unused "steppe" LHs, and the steppe was looking lonely (I took the map as an unofficial request).

Yes I started to figure as much. I did not want to make any direct request because IMO in general there are already enough people who ask others to mod, but I appreciate it a lot nevertheless.

Also, where Zimbabwe is located is where Malagasy will have to expand, which should create an interesting conflict with Mutapa (Can you say African Vikings?).

Ah I feared so when reading that the founders of Zimbabwe were closely related to Mutapa. But you have a good point on Malagasy, that should work.

The only reason I think Holland might not work is because Germany is likely to expand that direction due to the additions of Austria, Hungary, and Poland. However, if you have a plan to make Europe more competitive/dynamic, it will probably work, but maybe could be replaced by the Batavii.

Yes, best to leave that to a second release with some more balancing work. We will see.
But I like my Holland The reason I don't like replacing major countries with long historic roots with more ancient ones (though admittedly that would apply on Ireland and Scotland as well) is that I once played another world map mod with the Celtics replacing France. And I found it to strongly bother me role-play-wise.

With all that said, the best case scenario for South American civs is finding enough resources to add both Moche (would start in Colombia/Ecuador area, but would likely expand eastward) and Mapuche; but it is too early to declare.

Moche replacing Venezuela sounds neat in deed.

EDIT: Adding Chola (noticed it on map) and Moche. Civ Gold did not have Mapuche, and I am personally not familiar with that native group. If you want me to add it, could you provide a link to a BtS module which adds it.

Mapuche is part of the RoM2.8MegaCivPack1.7 which can be downloaded via torrent (still supported) here.

It looks like America is going to have a cramped start as well as all the civs in Britain. A lot of European civs do have cramped starts.

I already talked about bonuses for Europe. With America having so many native competitors it only makes sense to give them (and to a lesser extent Canada) also one.
Also when I say bonuses for Europe, I don't mean just making the whole of Europe more powerful. For instance Wales will recieve non, England a strong one, Germany a strong one and Poland a mild one.

So in the end the USA should be quit a challenge to the natives, and England should be able to conquer its neighbors, while Germany still is a match for Poland despite Poland having more room to the east.

Maybe those bonuses will solve all those problems, maybe they will create new ones. It is too early to tell, so before the first release I won't make the mentioned regions less crowded. After some experience and further bonus-tuning, it is an option.

Also I don't see the point of a Polynesian civ. There are so many Polynesian islands so why combine them all into one civ? Doesn't make much sense to me.

The Polynesia people don't only share a common heritage and culture, they even share a unique ethnicity. They may lack a history of unified powers, but they have most other requirements for a civ IMO.
But sure, they are certainly nonessential to the game. But IMO it adds some nice flavor to meet the native people when dealing with those islands.
Also: I am looking forward to try to lead the Polynesia people to world domination.

As to the North of North America: I have no real objection to adding another civ there. However, if one considers that the vast majority of the North is undesirable tundra, I see no urgent need either.

edit: I also thought about giving Arabia some bonuses. They did conquer the Middle East / North Africa after all and constructed a scientifically very advanced empire, but in-game they will just be a poor desert nation. What do you two think?

 

[generalstaff]

Okay, if better quality I go with Majapahit.

I think I should retract my earlier statement about Indonesia, while going though files for the Moche, I found a quality second LH. I would declare that they are about even in quality, choosing between the two will come down to if you want Islam or Hinduism to spread in that region.

Ah I feared so when reading that the founders of Zimbabwe were closely related to Mutapa. But you have a good point on Malagasy, that should work.

Well, if you want another African civilization, there is Kanem-Bornu.

Mapuche is part of the RoM2.8MegaCivPack1.7 which can be downloaded via torrent (still supported) here.

Thanks, I must have initial tossed it out due to lack of files. I also found that Arandaa made a version back for RoM 2.7; the problem with his Civs is that they had 3 UBs and 3 UUs. Hopefully he is using different LH graphics than zap, and hopefully that I am not using them somewhere else; there is a lack of quality Native American LHs graphics for some reason, I guess the graphics forum was too busy making Aquaman and 6 different versions of Cleopatra.

Anyways, I will first make sure I have enough art to work with before officially declaring the Mapuche.

As to the North of North America: I have no real objection to adding another civ there. However, if one considers that the vast majority of the North is undesirable tundra, I see no urgent need either.

I think the issue is that the map makes Canada seem small, so there is a disconnect. Also, I think there are concerns that the Western US is going to be pretty empty, and another Native American civ would force the Sioux to compete more with the Paiute, Navajo, and Apache. Granted the west looks to be mainly mountain and desert, but the rivers there are going to create Flood Plains, not to mention that the west coast itself is going to be a great expansion for the Paiute, assuming that a Barb Civ doesn't spring up and take it.

Anyways, I agree about Holland and the Vedic. Keeping the Vedic as a "Rev Civ" is good, and too many people are likely to not know about the Batavii...not to mention that any Dutch users are likely to want to play as Holland.

Bonus tuning will be key, Britain should be high in bonuses (many civs, area where the Industrial Revolution began) as well as the Middle East (many civs look like they are starting there, or looking to expand there, area of high scientific development historically; the Arabian Pen. should have something before Oil, at least the coastal areas should).

 

[soup567]

The Polynesia people don't only share a common heritage and culture, they even share a unique ethnicity. They may lack a history of unified powers, but they have most other requirements for a civ IMO.
But sure, they are certainly nonessential to the game. But IMO it adds some nice flavor to meet the native people when dealing with those islands.
Also: I am looking forward to try to lead the Polynesia people to world domination.

I suppose that's true.

As to the North of North America: I have no real objection to adding another civ there. However, if one considers that the vast majority of the North is undesirable tundra, I see no urgent need either.

But weren't there some civilizations who historically lived in the tundra? And they don't need to be tundra north, just north of the Siox and stuff.

edit: I also thought about giving Arabia some bonuses. They did conquer the Middle East / North Africa after all and constructed a scientifically very advanced empire, but in-game they will just be a poor desert nation. What do you two think?

Yeah, that sounds good. All the civs who historically were a very powerful at one point should get lot's of bonuses. Like the U.S.A., Russia, Germany, England, France, Spain, Mongolia, China, Japan, Arabia, Persia, the Ottomans, Rome, Greece, etc.

Also all these civs are going to put a lot of strain on computers. It's too bad you can't put features from RFC in so not all civs start at the same time, but it will still be really fun either way.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I think I should retract my earlier statement about Indonesia, while going though files for the Moche, I found a quality second LH. I would declare that they are about even in quality, choosing between the two will come down to if you want Islam or Hinduism to spread in that region.

Hm, I am pretty apathetic on this one. I toss a coin

Well, if you want another African civilization, there is Kanem-Bornu.

Grr, and again I forgot one. They are absolutely in.

I guess the graphics forum was too busy making Aquaman and 6 different versions of Cleopatra.

There can never be enough hot chicks around

I think the issue is that the map makes Canada seem small, so there is a disconnect. Also, I think there are concerns that the Western US is going to be pretty empty, and another Native American civ would force the Sioux to compete more with the Paiute, Navajo, and Apache. Granted the west looks to be mainly mountain and desert, but the rivers there are going to create Flood Plains, not to mention that the west coast itself is going to be a great expansion for the Paiute, assuming that a Barb Civ doesn't spring up and take it.

Well in reality Canada's size has no relation to its population or power (as it is with Russia to some extent). You can't expect those to live up to the claims they have in reality, except by literally forcing them to in-game. Which I don't really like, because while some historic resemblance is nice, I prefer a dynamic game play over realism overall. But as aid, Canada will receive a mild bonus and I can help this issue a little out by telling the AI where to put its first two cities.
You have a good point on the Piliwni (you wrote Paiute?), they very well could turn out quit strong. But are you sure another American civ would force the Sioux to be more competitive with the Piliwni? As I see it it would simply weaken the Sioux, giving the Piliwni more influence overall. And I'll force the Piliwni to found their second city in the west, so I don't expect much east-ward expansion by the Piliwni anyway.

Bonus tuning will be key, Britain should be high in bonuses (many civs, area where the Industrial Revolution began) as well as the Middle East (many civs look like they are starting there, or looking to expand there, area of high scientific development historically; the Arabian Pen. should have something before Oil, at least the coastal areas should).

All good points. I'll give it some thought.

But weren't there some civilizations who historically lived in the tundra? And they don't need to be tundra north, just north of the Siox and stuff.

Well yes, your point?

Yeah, that sounds good. All the civs who historically were a very powerful at one point should get lot's of bonuses. Like the U.S.A., Russia, Germany, England, France, Spain, Mongolia, China, Japan, Arabia, Persia, the Ottomans, Rome, Greece, etc.

Yes, Japan is a good point too. As are other civs. Ah this bonus-feature will be more work than I initially anticipated, but it should be worth it.

 

[generalstaff]

There can never be enough hot chicks around

That is why I added the Dido new graphics, as well as adding a few female LHs.

You have a good point on the Piliwni (you wrote Paiute?)

Just to clarify:
Dinnehih (Navajo and nearby tribes)
Piliwni (Paiute and nearby tribes)
Anishnaabek (Algonquian/Cree/Huron)

The issue is that these Civs' names are based on Native American words, which I am not familiar with compared to the names of the tribes. It was easier for me to refer to the tribe than look up the Civ (I was lazy in that post).

Yes, Japan is a good point too. As are other civs. Ah this bonus-feature will be more work than I initially anticipated, but it should be worth it.

From what I could tell from other people playing World Maps, Japan is an easy civilization to play thanks to being on an island with key strategic resources with not other competitors. Thanks to AND, early on, Japan will at least have to deal with seafaring barbs, and mid-late game, expand into China and Korea (like history).

Bonuses balancing is going to be important. Civs without much expansion room will require more resource rich land, compared to Civs which can expand unchecked for a while. It will also be difficult balancing gameplay with historical accuracy, but it seems like many of the regions where powers emerged from are also areas that were sought for their resources, so maybe that part of it will just be tedious to do.

On an unrelated note, I should mention that due to lack off LH art, the Mapuche Civ is likely to be of poor quality (by my standards anyways). The most likely way I can do it is reusing LHs and simply changing the backgrounds. The art for the UB and UU is fine, which is why I am still going to add it, especially since the LHs that I plan to recycle are of good quality. I am not sure if I am saying this more to let you know or just to vent, either way.

 

[soup567]

Japan probably shouldn't really have Idustrial resources like coal and oil (or at least small amounts), since that was a big reason they started expanding their empire in the early and mid 20th century.

 

[generalstaff]

Japan probably shouldn't really have Idustrial resources like coal and oil (or at least small amounts), since that was a big reason they started expanding their empire in the early and mid 20th century.

I agree, and elaborate by saying, small amount of Coal (UB + needed for history (Meiji Restoration and participation WWI)) and no Oil (it was a major factor for expansion into Indonesia). I should have specified by saying early-middle game strategic resources, namely: Copper, Iron, Coal, Horse, Sulphur.

 

[soup567]

Ok just want to say a couple MOAR things.

Are the Vikings there because it makes them like all the Scandinavian civs? Since vikings were from Denmark, Norway, and Sweden (Finland? I don't know). But will the Vikings have some different leaders this time too, not just Ragnar?

Also a cool feature for this would be that when you found a city it gets the right name depending on the location (like from RFC). Though I don't see it possible to be implemented at all since this isn't a mod. It would just be cool.

 

[soup567]

Another question. How are you going to get all these civs to work in the game? Is there a .dll larger than 50 civs?

 

[generalstaff]

Are the Vikings there because it makes them like all the Scandinavian civs? Since vikings were from Denmark, Norway, and Sweden (Finland? I don't know). But will the Vikings have some different leaders this time too, not just Ragnar?

The Viking LHs will be Ragnar (duh) and Harald Hardrada; each civ will have at least 2 LHs due to Revolutions. I do not know which LHs SiLL will choose to use for it, have it random, or something else.

I am fine with Vikings since Scandinavia is likely to be mostly tundra, forcing southern expansion, i.e. Viking raids and Denmark. If the Vikings were cut for Sweden and another Scandinavian civ, it might not work due to the tundra; Denmark could not expand due to Germany, Sweden, and Netherlands, Norway is stuck with more tundra than Sweden, which it will have to compete against, and Finland is boxed in by tundra, Russia, and likely Polish expansion.

 

[soup567]

The Viking LHs will be Ragnar (duh) and Harald Hardrada; each civ will have at least 2 LHs due to Revolutions. I do not know which LHs SiLL will choose to use for it, have it random, or something else.

I am fine with Vikings since Scandinavia is likely to be mostly tundra, forcing southern expansion, i.e. Viking raids and Denmark. If the Vikings were cut for Sweden and another Scandinavian civ, it might not work due to the tundra; Denmark could not expand due to Germany, Sweden, and Netherlands, Norway is stuck with more tundra than Sweden, which it will have to compete against, and Finland is boxed in by tundra, Russia, and likely Polish expansion.

Yeah that's what occurred to me after thinking about it. I guess they're another one of those civs of similar people like Polynesia. So I guess it does work better with them being the only Scandinavian civ.

 

[soup567]

SiLL are you planning on making any MOAR maps after this one? I'd love to see a WWII one and a modern one too.

 

[generalstaff]

SiLL are you planning on making any MOAR maps after this one? I'd love to see a WWII one and a modern one too.

WWII would work really well since most WWII and late 1940s leaders are in RoM or are being added. An offhand list: Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Churchill, Stalin, DeGaulle, Haakon VII, Chaing Kai-Sheck, Hirohito, Gandhi/Nehru, Ben Gurion, Curtin, Wilhelmina, Vargas, Cardenas, Mackenzie King, Ho Chi Minh, Peron.

The other scenario I would like to see is a 1492 World Scenario, the title can be "By Compass or by Sword." 1492 would force European nations to decide whether to pursue New World or Continental conquest. The Balkans are facing the Ottomans, who are competing for both Africa and West Asia. New World civs will not only fight each other, but invading Europeans. In East Asia, Ming China will soon have to battle expansive Europeans. South East Asia is in decline, where as in South Asia, the dawn of the Mughal Empire is on the horizon as the Timurids collapse. Africa sees the rise of the Songhai, Morocco, and Zimbabwe, but can these small starting states survive the rising tide of Seafaring Europeans and Eastern Gunpowder Empires?

I also found this map while writing the above description (checking dates). I like 1200 AD better than a 1000 AD scenario for RoM due to the nature of the tech tree.

A "Greek World" ancient scenario would be interesting as well, based off of the Greek World mod that came with Vanilla Civ4.

 

[soup567]

The other scenario I would like to see is a 1492 World Scenario, the title can be "By Compass or by Sword." 1492 would force European nations to decide whether to pursue New World or Continental conquest. The Balkans are facing the Ottomans, who are competing for both Africa and West Asia. New World civs will not only fight each other, but invading Europeans. In East Asia, Ming China will soon have to battle expansive Europeans. South East Asia is in decline, where as in South Asia, the dawn of the Mughal Empire is on the horizon as the Timurids collapse. Africa sees the rise of the Songhai, Morocco, and Zimbabwe, but can these small starting states survive the rising tide of Seafaring Europeans and Eastern Gunpowder Empires?

I also found this map while writing the above description (checking dates). I like 1200 AD better than a 1000 AD scenario for RoM due to the nature of the tech tree.

A "Greek World" ancient scenario would be interesting as well, based off of the Greek World mod that came with Vanilla Civ4.

Sounds really cool too. That's way before all the major New World civs were around. Would it be possible for them to spawn later?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That is why I added the Dido new graphics, as well as adding a few female LHs.

And I thought you were a male feminist. Silly me.

From what I could tell from other people playing World Maps, Japan is an easy civilization to play thanks to being on an island with key strategic resources with not other competitors.

Really? I never played Japan, but I always saw the AI not amounting to anything meaningful.

I am not sure if I am saying this more to let you know or just to vent, either way.

Well - either way - thanks for the info.

Also a cool feature for this would be that when you found a city it gets the right name depending on the location (like from RFC). Though I don't see it possible to be implemented at all since this isn't a mod. It would just be cool.

Yes, it would. But it is not really planned, no.

But will the Vikings have some different leaders this time too, not just Ragnar?

Ragnar will look the best, so I'll go with him. But also this can easily be changed within a line in the WB-file.

Another question. How are you going to get all these civs to work in the game? Is there a .dll larger than 50 civs?

Not that I know of (and it wouldn't be helpful anyway because it needs to be compatible with the AND-DLL).
I'll simply create my own.

SiLL are you planning on making any MOAR maps after this one? I'd love to see a WWII one and a modern one too.

A WWII one, really? There are two different excellent WWII scenarios I know of and sure as hell a couple more out there. I have no ambition for this, sorry.
A modern one is more interesting and as a matter of fact I worked on a modern-wm-scenario two years or so ago but abandoned it because my computer couldn't handle the requirements back then.

But there is not much point in discussing future projects at this point. Let me get this one finished for now

 

[soup567]

A WWII one, really? There are two different excellent WWII scenarios I know of and sure as hell a couple more out there. I have no ambition for this, sorry.
A modern one is more interesting and as a matter of fact I worked on a modern-wm-scenario two years or so ago but abandoned it because my computer couldn't handle the requirements back then.

I know there are some good WWII maps out there, but none compatible with AND 1.75.

 

[generalstaff]

And I thought you were a male feminist. Silly me.

lol. Would you believe it was a request from os79? No, OK (it was requested slightly before I was going to add it anyways as part of a now outdated module). The Cleopatra art replacer I am adding is even more "revealing" than the Dido one, sadly with all the different versions of Cleo out, it is the only one that does not look like Hatsheput.

Really? I never played Japan, but I always saw the AI not amounting to anything meaningful.

I know the Japan information since some RoM user would posted their play style on world maps. I forgot why they posted it, I am just glad I remembered it. I am not surprised that the AI was stymied on islands, though.

 

[soup567]

Is Nov. 6th still going to be the day when this is released or has it changed?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I have lately been quit busy so I am afraid I won't make the 6th. But November as the month of release stands.

 

[soup567]

Ok, thanks for the info.