Balance and Gameplay discussion.

[OnmyojiOmn]

The Pavise was a common accoutrement of Archer units in the Middle Ages (particularly Italian Mercenary Crossbowmen), and not a unique unit in it's own right.

I was thinking Sicily, but HRE and the Byzantines seem most associated with that part of Europe. As for it being a UU, you could make the same argument about scythed chariots. Personally, I'd just like to see more units with shields in the game because the emblems look great, which is the same reason I'd like spearmen to be more useful. Maybe this could be done with artstyles for certain civs.

 

[Ambassador]

Hi,

I don't know how many others have tried to play LoR on Emperor (sure, I'd want to know about it). I apologize if what I present in the following was already discussed extensivly. Everytime I tried I got beaten by about 500 - 1 BC by a major AI force, my capital was taken, the game was over. Now, the critical thing for me was to survive the dual challenge in the initial time: to build cities/improve tiles/build 1 or 2 crucial wonders AND to have a large enough force to defend myself or scare off bloodthirsty AI civs.
Now what I did was to take advantage of the starting as minor civ component, which saved my recent emperor games. In the beginning I try to research bronze or iron working as soon as possible (or at least have a protective leader). Then, after the second city is built I mainly use the melee units to conquer the rest amount of cities I which to acquire instead of building them. That way, I gain experience points, frighten off some neighbour civs, maybe even gain a warlord to settle him at my major military garrison city.
All the while the other AIs keep battling each other which saves me time. I also noticed that though they may be more powerful now, the tech progression overall is slower than on my monarch games. For example, astronomy was developed but in the late 1600s.

Now, what are your experiences in emperor or with minor civ component?

 

[phungus420]

I have beaten LoR on Emperor a couple of times without reloading. It's hard, and I don't think I'll be able to do it with the next release (the BetterAI update coming up is pretty big, and noticeable). Both times I won the game without reloading, or lucking out with an isolated start; the way I did it was going imediatly for bronze working, then getting archery for imediate protection (the Barbarian Civs will come gunning for you fast, you need archery, plus the AI with start as minors will throw a couple archer + ram stacks at you quickly as well) and then polytheism, lucking out and having Bronze close enough where I could settle my next city easily and get it, and then investing all I had into 300 Spartans. The 300 Spartans unit is incredibly useful in the early game where you are fighting off early invasion stacks of the Emperor AI, and Barbarian Civs (as well as barbs). After doing that I went into wonder whore mode with a focus on settling the Super Specialists and running Representation as quick as I can. You are seriously behind in this strategy for quite a while, and your empire will be small, but if you play diplo correctly you can manage and by the Industrial Era your massive Super Specialist + Beuracracy + Representation capital is churning out massive science at which point you usually shoot ahead of the AI. The first time I pulled this off it surprised me as I didn't think wonderwhoring would work at high levels, but I saw this strategy in the forums here for a diety level game and it worked, so I had to try it with Revolutions, Barbarian Civs, and Start as Minors. Also I think this strategy requires you to be industrius.

I haven't had the chance to play much to try other strats. Currently I'm in a Monarch game using the latest LoRtest build where I have just entered the Middle ages and I'm still behind; only wonder I have is the mids and didn't get 300 spartans; and also I'm one of the bigger empires, but my economy is in shambles and I'm worried about a major revolt in the southern part of my empire. Anyway I think I can start pulling away with this one in the Rennaisaince provided I don't have a major revolution on my hands that balkanizes my empire, but this is at Monarch difficulty, I haven't won on Emperor without reloading using a non wonder whore strategy.

 

[Ambassador]

Hi phungus,

thanks for your impressions. So you were actually on a deity diet:

a diety level game

So I also have to try the wonderwhoring strategy some time. Up till now I didnt pay too much attention on getting those early legends, too much investment for too small a chance of getting them. The later ones, such as the 54th was always mine, with a decent Heroic Epic housing production city.
Interestingly, I never have any difficulties with revolutions. Mainly by going to war every time some unrest is building up. Military victories ('luck') without expanding too much or with gifting these cities to minor civs always keeps my citizens diverged enough from thinking about revolt or independence.
The major issue, which Im still working on is, how to you counter this one major tech AND military AI civ which emerges in the middle to later game? There's always one way ahead of everybody else, not warmongering too much but also too big and influential that other civs would want to fight against it. The critical thing is, it always takes away every goody given for researching a tech as the first one (free tech, etc.). In the end its ahead of you by 2 -3 techs always with no chance of catching up.

 

[bestbrian]

I've been kicking the you-know-what out of Emperor in my last few LoR games, but the starts have been well-suited to my play. Most recent is an Arboria map with Sitting Bull, where I seem to be planted in the middle of the continent and surrounded by warmongers. If this one goes down as well as the others, it'll be time to try Immortal; I just need to find time to actually play it.

 

[phungus420]

bestbrian what options are you playing on? I find Emperor extrememely difficult with Barbarian Civ + Barbarian World, and Start as Minors on. It's so hard to survive the early rushes. What do you do when you don't start near copper for example?

 

[bestbrian]

bestbrian what options are you playing on? I find Emperor extrememely difficult with Barbarian Civ + Barbarian World, and Start as Minors on. It's so hard to survive the early rushes. What do you do when you don't start near copper for example?

I've been very lucky my last two LoR Emperor games, in that the starts suited my preferred style of play, and were highly advantageous. These were on PerfectWorld maps, Marathon/Large, Raging Barbs, Start as Minors, btw. Both games I began with peninsular coastal starts (the first as Hannibal, the second as Pericles). Both had nearby sites with high immediate commerce potential (gems and gold). Neither had Copper within the first 6 city sites in the Pericles game (I don't recall the Hannibal game), but Iron was handy, and Stone was to be had in both (the first immediately as I moved to settle on a Stone Hill, the second was in the cross of my second or third city).

The Peninsular starts led to a smaller front to defend from Barbs, while the bonus commerce led to faster teching (faster with lots of seafood resources and Hannibal's FIN and Mining as a starting tech). In each case I eventually got the Great Wall up, which put an end to the Barb problem. Minor Civs, OTH, still proved to be a pain. The problem comes in balancing expansion / teching / military. LoR requires more emphasis on early game military than I'm used to, which slows city improvements. It also alters the tech progression a bit, as in both games I Oracle'd Machinery in the BCs, just to have a major military advantage to maintain expansion. Btw, Legio X is the most awesome of the Legends units for this. In a small empire, that 3 moves plus Moblity and Blitz, lets it cover alot of ground, and counter just about anything that strays over the borders. Aside from that, I played a pretty standard Emperor game (maximize commerce bonuses, get Libraries up ASAP, use Science Specialists / Research to maintain positive tech advancement, try to have about 6 to 9 cities by 0 AD, etc).

The AI seems to be hampered by these settings more than the human; they spend alot of time flailing at each other. I've had it happen a few times that I found myself blocked off by the AI, spent some time rebuilding my economy, and then just expanded again when the AI's blocking city got razed by someone or other. It often seems like good policy to keep a Settler just sitting around to take advantage of such things.

The game I'm planning on playing next will be very different as it involves an Arboria map, where I'm pretty much dead center of the continent and surrounded by pinhead warmongers. I don't recall there being any commerce bonuses, and I don't know about Metal/Horses. The start doesn't seem to be very advantageous, will probably require an early rush, will have slow teching, and will be diplomatically trying; I think this game will provide a more accurate gauge of Emperor level LoR.

 

[achilleszero]

Bestbrian, so with this game that you played as Pericles, was this while he was still Ind/Philo? If so how did that combo seem to work out?

So far no one has given any good feed back on if Ind/Philo is overpowered or not. If all combos are filled back up again he will most likely get the traits back (currently in 0.97test he is his old Enl/Philo). Unless Solomon gets added, then maybe he will get it. But ohter than that, I dont know who else to give that to.

 

[bestbrian]

Bestbrian, so with this game that you played as Pericles, was this while he was still Ind/Philo? If so how did that combo seem to work out?

So far no one has given any good feed back on if Ind/Philo is overpowered or not. If all combos are filled back up again he will most likely get the traits back (currently in 0.97test he is his old Enl/Philo). Unless Solomon gets added, then maybe he will get it. But ohter than that, I dont know who else to give that to.

It didn't seem to be all that overpowered. The situation was optimized for it's exploitation, as once my core 6 cities were up, I had Stone/Marble, and no close neighbors to where I could spam out wonders, which led to more GPs, but it didn't seem unbalanced. Surrounded by enemies, on more marginal land, and having to fight my way out of a bag, IND/PHI wouldn't have been exploitable at all. As it was, the start was so solid, and I was so far ahead, I could've been Toku and it wouldn't have mattered.

Btw, the two strongest AIs in that game were Ataturk (the only neighbor on my continent and the first to die once I got Sushi and Mining Inc to allow me to utilize all the crap land on our continent), and Abu Bakr on the other continent. Guess Enlightened is a good passive trait for the AI.

 

[bestbrian]

Oh, and let me emphasize, since I didn't in my previous post as I was running out the door to work, I LIKE PHI/IND. It should be in the mix, and Pericles seems like a nice match for it. Like any trait, UU, or UB it's all going to come down to the individual game circumstances, and the ability of the player; no trait combinations should be discarded because of some false notion of being "overpowered". Yes, the AI can't make proper use of it, but the AI sucks with all PHI leaders, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

[achilleszero]

Oh, and let me emphasize, since I didn't in my previous post as I was running out the door to work, I LIKE PHI/IND. It should be in the mix, and Pericles seems like a nice match for it. Like any trait, UU, or UB it's all going to come down to the individual game circumstances, and the ability of the player; no trait combinations should be discarded because of some false notion of being "overpowered". Yes, the AI can't make proper use of it, but the AI sucks with all PHI leaders, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

It still remains to be seen whether or not it is a false notion of being "overpowered". Im sure Firaxis tested it at some point or another after which they made thier desicion not to include it.

What concerns me is not that the AI sucks at using PHI leaders, but whether or not it is too powerful in the hands of the human. Yes there are times when you will not grab any wonders. But just because there are times that something will not benefit you does not mean it isnot overpowered. If there is any point at which it can be exploited and/or give you too much of an advantage, then it can be considered overpowered.

My apparent false notion of it being too strong stems from back when I stuck it in my game way back when I 1st got BtS. It didnt even seem to be fair. I had rediculous leads, and this was when I had just moved up to monarch so should have been struggling. But that was only 2 games. Now I have your take onl it, and you seem to be a high level player. So a few more opinions on it would be nice.

 

[OnmyojiOmn]

Maybe you could compare Phi/Ind to something like vanilla Praets. You may not always have iron right away, but I think a human player is going to get ahold of iron about as reliably as they'll get the Pyramids. A human can use/exploit Praets better than the AI can, and doing so will often decide the game. The same goes for GLH on ocean maps, vanilla Immortals, etc.

If Phi/Ind is as powerful as those, and those aspects of the game are nerfed, then shouldn't Phi/Ind be too? Just thinking out loud. Personally, I find something like a wonder economy with Ramesses more interesting. Maybe you could add more opportunities like that, maybe a Phi leader for Iroquois or a lighthouse UB with two merchants.

 

[bestbrian]

IMHO, it just seems very arbitrary to say that it's overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in the game (and my criticism on this point is directed at Firaxis, not AZ). Is it a potent combination? Oh yeah. Is it so potent that an end user in a single player game shouldn't have the option available to utilize it for their enjoyment? That's where I would beg to differ with Firaxis' ommission.

Btw, just started playing my Sitting Bull game; nice art. I really love the Brave - nice unit, looks great, and it's saving my can right now. Probably the only time I've ever done a Horseback Riding beeline.

 

[achilleszero]

IMHO, it just seems very arbitrary to say that it's overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in the game (and my criticism on this point is directed at Firaxis, not AZ). Is it a potent combination? Oh yeah. Is it so potent that an end user in a single player game shouldn't have the option available to utilize it for their enjoyment? That's where I would beg to differ with Firaxis' ommission.

Btw, just started playing my Sitting Bull game; nice art. I really love the Brave - nice unit, looks great, and it's saving my can right now. Probably the only time I've ever done a Horseback Riding beeline.

If one or two more players chime in with thier experience on Ind/Phi and give same opinion as you, then its most likely going in. Probably for either Pericles, or Solomon (if Israel gets added). If I find 3 more Firaxis level LHs to fill out all the slots, then its getting added regardless. At this point I would rather add it to Solomon since I just cant see Israel having a super powerful UU or UB. Pericles seems to fit Ind/Phi better tahn anyone, but Greece already has Alexander and the Hoplite.

 

[usmle]

I find that the Start as minors, BarbarianCiv, Revolution, & Barbarian World options, while a lot of fun to play, have the effect of making the game most difficult in the beginning, with the difficulty decreasing throughout the game. Basically if you make it through the beginning you'll probably win (at least so far in my experience). I've been playing Small or Normal sized PerfectWorld2 maps on Epic speed, usually Allow Pangeas.

I tried going up a difficulty level to Emp, and it made the beginning tougher, but once I got past the early chaos it was surprisingly smooth sailing. I suspect that putting the AI into war mode at the very beginning of the game in the long run slows it down, and maybe gunshy about declaring war later??

For my next game, I'm going to play at gimped Immortal by giving myself archery and two archers to start. This way, the early game should be survivable and hopefully will remain challenging all the way through. I'm also thinking about reving up the tech diffusion settings.

 

[bestbrian]

I don't consider that much of a cheat. If I play Start As Minors I give myself whatever advantage the AI has been given at the beginning; I consider the extra units and techs at the beginning to be an unfair advantage given such an environment.

 

[phungus420]

Thanks for the feedback, agree entirely. While waiting for achilleszero to upload a fixed royal galleon (need it as the current one causes a crash) I decided to tackle this issue. From now oon if Start as Minors is selected the AI will not recieve the free techs it normally gets at gamestart. This should solve this issue. My one concern is that the AI needs a defensive archer to stop a human cheese rush, but I'm not sure how to implement this.

 

[bestbrian]

Thanks for the feedback, agree entirely. While waiting for achilleszero to upload a fixed royal galleon (need it as the current one causes a crash) I decided to tackle this issue. From now oon if Start as Minors is selected the AI will not recieve the free techs it normally gets at gamestart. This should solve this issue. My one concern is that the AI needs a defensive archer to stop a human cheese rush, but I'm not sure how to implement this.

Just start the Human on the same playing field as the AI. If the AI gets 2 Scouts, 2 Archers, and a Settler (plus Archery), so does the Human.

 

[phungus420]

Just start the Human on the same playing field as the AI. If the AI gets 2 Scouts, 2 Archers, and a Settler (plus Archery), so does the Human.

No, the AI needs help against cheese rush tactics. Anyway the code is set now, and will be in 0.9.7b (will be releasing shortly, compiling install scripts now, then have to upload them, and all that jazz). Basically the way it works is that when Start is minors is on the AI gets no free techs, regardless of difficulty level (otherwise it functions normally, also the Handicaps have been set to their standard BtS settings now), If the difficulty level of the game is monarch+ the AI gets a free archer, all other players (humans and AI players if the game is Prince and below) get a free warrior.

 

[phungus420]

From bug reporting:

Phungus, has anyone in the RevDCM forums ever exspressed any interest in making the Rev effects scale with game difficulty?

I asked for this functionality, but it kind of got lost in the 2.6 development cycle and isn't on the RevDCM todo list. Probably be best if someone else asked jdog and glider for this functionality; I've asked for quite a few things lately, and have been getting them implemented; I feel like I may be being too demanding. They do have other aspects of the mod they may want to focus on outside of what I think is important (though if other users express interest to them for this, that could bring attention to it again, which might get it on the todo list).