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Balance and Gameplay discussion.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Legends of Revolution' started by phungus420, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. pigg

    pigg Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Actually my last Barbary Corsair had 75% strength and 20% healing while moving with few first strikes when first galleons were built. Also the survival odds vs ship of the line were 100% vs 0.35 when they appeared. The power of Barbary Corsair is the earliness of it. So easy to pick early ships with one. The first ships that computer can sink it with are steamships. Even its super powerful its fun if its mine :p And as an attack sub it's going to sink any ship..

    Anyway Barbary Corsair isn't my big problem, i just think its bit too powerful. The problem is that the religions won't appear like in BTS if I start from later era. They are not found at all -.- They do found in other mods i have played so that's bit weird. I have tried to solve this with different religion setups on and off.

    It's nice that graphics are lighter for computer. My old one used to crash with big maps later on.. I didn't realize that they are more practical, maybe it has been a bit faster :hatsoff: As summary LoR is really good mod and i can't say a bad word if its played with marathon speed and basic early start. But the games in BTS were usually won after first big war and i'd like to fight also with modern era troops :) That's the biggest reason why i wanted mod with stability.
     
  2. nfw

    nfw King

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    733
    I disagree with battering ram. Catapults do insignificant amount of damage to walled cities, if there is a castle then you can forget about bring down culture defense.

    The game already favors city defenders too much IMHO, which is why I increased longbow cost to 75, and reduced its strength to 5. It really helps AI v AI wars, cities actually change hands now instead of seeing multiple SODs sitting outside a city doing nothing.
     
  3. Chronis

    Chronis Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    100
    I wanted to make a post somewhere that describes my reasoning behind the changed I introduced in LOR tweaks. If you disagree with any change I have made let me know by posting on the form thread for this mod at
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=453180
    or in this thread. If you make a good case and I agree with you I will likely change it.

    Reasoning behind changes Introduced:

    Pillage your own roads: Just a nice feature should have been in vanilla BTS

    Civilization culture no longer vanishes once their last city is captured:
    Previously when you destroyed the last city of an enemy empire all of their culture magically disappeared. Due to the
    importance of culture on revolutions this makes complete and total destruction of an enemy empire the only optimal way
    to play. Making a defeated state a vassal is not a competitive strategy nor is capturing part of an enemy empire and
    then making peace. Furthermore, once wiped out the defeated enemy is added back into the list of possible revolution
    civilizations so they can pop back up on the other half of the world hundreds of years after they are defeated.
    When they do all of a sudden their culture will magically reappear in all of your conquered cities causing unexpected
    stability problems. Changing this makes conquering an enemy civ harder, and allows for alternative strategies
    like vassal states.

    Hereditary Rule Cap: Most people don't realize it but currently monarchy is far and away the best government civic.
    By destroying your own access to metal, building tons of cheap warriors for unlimited happiness and then trading your
    happiness producing resources for health resources you can get your city populations to size 20+ in the early game
    while the AI is still limited to a population of 10 or so. The warriors created stability will also solve any revolution
    issues you may have as well as contribute to your overall army strength calculation which makes the AI less likely to
    attack you. This makes winning the game trivial even on deity.

    Start as Minors tech bonues. Start as Minors is in my opinion supposed to be more challenging then the normal game. Restoring the standard high difficult bonuses to this game option makes it so.

    New World Changes: The new world is quite fun, it gives you the opportunity to fight some primitive cultures and
    wipe them out or help them as needed. However, as initially implemented way too many very small civs formed each with
    only 1-3 cities. They would also never have any real chance of catching up or competing in the game.

    Revolutions Scaled Stability Bonus: Currently revolutions make the game much easier. This is because human players
    are much better at avoiding them and thus they mostly penalize the AI. The scaled stability bonus gives the AI a
    relative stability bonus of 20% on Deity difficulty level somewhat correcting for this.

    Barbarian Nomads: Are weak at a strength of 3. By increasing their strength to 5 they challenge the player and
    make for a more interesting game.

    Battering Rams: With a bombard rate of 6% they were better at removing city defenses then catapults which cost more
    and come significantly later. Also with a max damage of only 20% they almost never die. In short they are simply
    overpowered as initially implemented

    Trebuchets: had a higher bombard rate at 14% then Bombards which come later. Reducing this to 10% make the siege line scale appropriately.

    Pikemen city attack penalty removed: As pikemen make poor city attacker relative to heavy footmen this penalty was unnecessary.

    Knights given bonus versus melee: Knights as originally implemented are completely trumped by both elephants
    and pikemen both of which come earlier and cost less. They also don’t have access to city raider making them poor
    city attackers compared to heavy footmen which left them with no role in the game. Giving them a +20 bonus verses
    melee makes them dominate for a brief time in combat outside cities while still leaving them trumped by elephants
    and equally matched by pikemen.

    Knights given penalty when attacking or defending cities: For balance given their melee bonus this penalty
    gives pikemen the upper hand when they defend cities.

    Musketmen given a city defense bonus: Musketmen are weak in LOR. They come later in the game now with the
    addition of the musket tech but their strength is still only 9. A city defense boost would make them a more viable
    unit better.

    Special Forces now the only unit that can achieve a 100% withdraw rate: In base LOR it is possible to make 100% withdraw explorers and use these units to farm more great generals as they never die. This mechanic is broken. Now only a single unit type Special Forces and the Legend SAS can achieve a 100% withdraw rates.

    Guerilla III promation rate changes: LOR adds 25% hill attack and defense to the Guerilla line making it somewhat overpowered. By reducing the withdraw rate to 20% we balance that added strength while simultaneously dealing with the 100% problem.

    Woodsmen III promotion changes: LOR adds 25% forest defense and 50% forest attack to the Woodsmen line. This makes Woodsmen III overpowered and allows a stack of woodsmen III units to decimate AI armies without any losses. Reducing the first strikes by 1 and the heal rate slightly balances this added strength.

    Pathfinder upgrade changes: Necessary to prevent 100% withdraw cavalry.

    Privateers production costs: Restored to base BTS costs as these were slightly overpowered at the lower production.

    Leonardos Workshop decreased in cost: Nice new wonder, but pretty expensive for what it does.

    Great Lighthouse cost increased: This is one of the best wonder in the game as long as you are on the coast but
    is cheap to build compared to the other wonders.

    Trafalgar square whale bonus removed. Moved to military tradition as military science is was already very good. Trafalgar square is an amazingly good wonder. Probably too good to be build-able for half price. It fits well with the other military buildings at military tradition.

    Swaping bonuses of Shwedagon Paya and Pyramids: Pyramids allow you to switch to representation very early in the game.
    This lets your cities grow much larger than they would normally at this point. They also removes any stability worries
    and give extra research from specialist. Costs and bonus of the pyramids are switched with that of the Schwedagon Pagoda
    This pushes back unlock all government civics option to aesthetics instead of masonry and also gives the religion line an
    early boost which it needs because it is under powered at the moment.
     
  4. idle

    idle Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    125
    Location:
    Oslo
    As of now, Pathfinders can be upgraded to Cavalry for a "measly" 230 gold. Expansive leaders get the free morale promotion on all recon units. Hello blitzkrieg! 3-move cav with guerilla III was a steamroller.

    Maybe the upgrade path should be changed?
     
  5. Chronis

    Chronis Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    100
    I altered the upgrade path in LOR tweaks 1.7 as part of dealing with the problem of 100% withdraw units.
     

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