Balancing UU abilities

[Fleme]

Don't worry, they won't be implemented anywhere else but my head.

I fully realize their overpoweredness but what the hey!

 

[Khan Quest]

Panzer - A 3-move Pazer is overpowering IMHO. It would be the only natural 3 move unit in the game (I'd be OK with it if Mech Inf & Modern Armor got 3 moves as well). Give Panzers Mobility.

Jaguar - Geurilla x 2

Hwachi - Add first strike, its historically acurrate.

 

[Jamuka]

The UUs are mostly balanced - the problem is the AI. If every AI didnt have feudalism in the BC's, the mace and catapult UUs might be useful. Program the AI to sometimes shoot for liberalism, and camel archers would be a whole lot better. And try using quechas against a human... All the AI use virtually the same tech path and strategy every game; fix that and this list will look a whole lot different

Infact, the only UU's I really have a problem with are the boats and the cho-ku-nu, because no one builds boats, and why you would want to attack with crossbowmen is still beyond me...

 

[nbcman]

CKNs are a good UU with collateral and 2 1st strikes without any promotions-but they are not designed to be the do-all unit. They have to be complemented with units with CR to be able to take cities (cats/swords/mace) and protected with anti-mounted units.

 

[Frodus]

CKN is okay, but the problem lies in the Chinese. They have weak leader traits (assume no protective wall abuse) and a useless UB that is marginally useful for a cultural victory.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Panzers - I like the 3 moves. Keep the armor bonus. This is the game's latest UU - it SHOULD be good.

Ballistas - IMO, give them first strikes. The BALLISTA and whatnot.
Phalynx - Good as is, probably better as the spear.
Bowmen (maybe) - They do need a look. Interesting abilities would be available with hunting only, first strikes, higher base str, or starts with a promotion (something, not all).
Dog Soldiers - The game's best early anti-melee is resourceless, comes with a typical tech, and grants barb immunity and supreme choking. Don't touch it.
Musketeers - Allow them to start with combat I or drill I in addition to the 2 moves, and you have a good unit.
Jaguar - It's pretty awkward, but IMO has the potential to serve a number of roles. Easy woods III is the top one...IMO it's fine.
Hwachis - Catapults with melee bonuses ARE strong.
Impi - +50% against melee.
Holkans - First strikes?
Conquistadors - They're already pretty good. I don't know what you want from a unit that has 0 counters for some time after discovery.
Curracks - Improved movement, or free combat? It's a good naval unit.
East Indianman - Really shouldn't be touched. Maybe another approach is a completely different UU?
Gallics - Swords as a unit are underrated. Easier, more likely access to more versatile swords, which are sometimes AGG swords? If you want to see something funny, start them with guerilla II also.
Camel archers - First strikes. It's an archer unit supposedly, so why not?

Edit:

Panzer - A 3-move Pazer is overpowering IMHO. It would be the only natural 3 move unit in the game (I'd be OK with it if Mech Inf & Modern Armor got 3 moves as well). Give Panzers Mobility.

Gunships, which happen to be HARD COUNTERS to panzers, get 4 movement points. Any 2 move unit can outpace a panzer on defense. Overpowering? Nay. Only with a substantial tech lead so that you don't walk into CG II fortified infantry and anti-tanks, which forces you to come up with collateral or bombers...

The UUs are mostly balanced - the problem is the AI. If every AI didnt have feudalism in the BC's, the mace and catapult UUs might be useful. Program the AI to sometimes shoot for liberalism, and camel archers would be a whole lot better. And try using quechas against a human... All the AI use virtually the same tech path and strategy every game; fix that and this list will look a whole lot different

Agreed. The AI tech path is stale, I'd like to see more variety. Hell, even somewhat haphazard variety in tech path choices would be more interesting.

CKNs are a good UU with collateral and 2 1st strikes without any promotions-but they are not designed to be the do-all unit. They have to be complemented with units with CR to be able to take cities (cats/swords/mace) and protected with anti-mounted units.

Pro sucks but actually does enhance the chinese UU. You can put cover on them, and they'll be attacking cities more effectively than anything but well-promoted or AGG swords. Melee won't defend well at all (especially with the collateral) and archery units won't do especially well either. The two first strikes are material.

CKN is okay, but the problem lies in the Chinese. They have weak leader traits (assume no protective wall abuse) and a useless UB that is marginally useful for a cultural victory.

EXP is a pretty solid trait, and IND is useful if you're willing to play for power wonders OR failure cash (even on national wonders). Assuming the wall "abuse" away does weaken PRO somewhat (I have major issues with people complaining about using wallchops when the favorite civic blocking all civic switches and "self-closeness" bugs, not to mention worst enemy map hack detection exist. If you argue these things that still exist in 3.17 were intended, you have no argument against wallchop at all. It's different if you just want a challenge, so don't so it, though). But let's pretend you can't wallchop.

Even then, china's starting techs virtually guarantee a good start. You can hit both bronzeworking and writing with 3 techs, and most land-locked starts allow it. Good culture-press, fast early great person, and an excellent chance of defending yourself. There are very few civ/leader combos in the game where everything is good (Rome has great leaders/UU, just-ok UB...ottomans are actually solid all around...persia is pretty good...but basically after the TOP TIER civ/leaders china fits in with any other).

 

[madscientist]

Thanks for all the advice. I am still toying with these ideas but I made the following changes to my mod

Panzers: Gave them mobility, took away the armor bonus. I may readd the armor though. Mobility makes a little more sense that 3 movement points. The alternative is that Panzers ignore terrain similar to Keshiks.

Ballista: Made them resourcesless, took away the mounted targeting ability. Understand I have tinkered with Khmer quite a bit, they are expansive and Sectrative, thus the UB get's a 100% bonus from Expansive.

Numidian Cavalry: 6 strength, only +25% versus Melee, Kept the free flanking I.

Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.

Camel Archers: upped withdrawl bonus to 20%. I like the UU and thought a slight boost was required. Also protective leaders in my mod get a 50% boost to great General points within cultural borders, so retreating Camels can help pop out GGs faster for teh Arabs.

Bowman: +25% versus melee, starts with shock. A slight boost in that the shock bonus can upgrade to longbows/crossbows.

Muskateers: Upped strength to 10, movement to 1. I think the French could do with a plain stronger unit givien their history, and dammit Napolean deserves it!

Hwacha: Upped the strength to 6, removed the melee bonus. Perhaps overpowered but they took a very bad nerf in BTS and I have no idea how to revert them to the ability to KILL units (I am only doing XML here). There is a way to change the percentage damage (current 75%), can this be upgraded to 100% (just thought of it now).

I left all the others alone at the moment. I won't change Dogs, I have been convinced they are fine. Somehow I want to flip arround Holkans and Impi's, but not sure where to go there. Phalynx I am undecided about still.

Thanks for the help!

 

[ViterboKnight]

Don't cry if I ask you that but......... why are Keshiks so untouchable??? I must have some problems in using them properly...

Now, my opinions about your choices:

Praets: they stay too powerful even without the +10% against cities. At least you should make them more expensive.
Ballistas: they are the most peculiar units in the game, and I definitely like their bonus effect... You should keep them as they are.
Panzer: it's ok to give mobility instead of extra movements (image THREE attacks each turn!! Could be devastating).
Jags: with your modifications, they'd become a close copy to Gallics; it's better to diversify them; better to be weaker, cheaper, resourceless; give them some hills attack bonus in addition, if you find them underpowered.
Camel archers: agree with you
Bowman: why Shock? they are great as they are, excellent anti-swords and anti-axes!! What else?
Musketeers: agree with you

Extra opinions:
Trebs: increase collateral damage (currently, they inflict less collateral damage than cats)

 

[CornPlanter]

I would leave Phalanx as they are. Pretty good, well rounded unit. And changing it to spears with bonus against melee certainly makes no sense, historically melee was the reason why phalanx formation declined. It would make more sense to give praetorians +50% against spearmen

Panzers: Keshik version. 3 move is nice and fits history well, but it's way too overpowered I'm afraid. On the other hand we have praetorians who just own everything and its OK. We might as well have Panzers who own everything and do it fast.

Musketeer: Do whatever you like but leave movement 2 please! Napoleon was known for his speed. Given the size of French military at the time, maybe you could make them just cheaper? Really cheaper, that is?

Hwacha: It's been a while since I last did modding, but I believe dmg cap is coded in XML. You can just change that value for 0 or 100 % dont remember. But I might be wrong. Ability to actually kill things would be awesome.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Loui]

Panzers: Gave them mobility, took away the armor bonus. I may readd the armor though. Mobility makes a little more sense that 3 movement points. The alternative is that Panzers ignore terrain similar to Keshiks.

The fact that made the German panzer so good was it's superior durability, at least until they had to decrease the quality of the armament to speed up production (and to use fewer ressources). The original versions (with the original armor quality) was almost unbeatable because it could take a lot of punishment before it broke. Once the Germans had to lower their standards of production their tanks were beaten.

Anyway: I like what you're doing, I just found the thread. Making them ignore terrain is not a good idea in my opinion.

 

[Fleme]

I don't like the resourceless Ballista Elephant. Ballista is a Siege weapon and as such collateral damage makes sense. Either that or a first strike or two.

 

[JammerUno]

Ask yourself this;
Is a tank with 3 movements points in stead of 2 a better UU than preatorians? I don't think so. I can't imagine them marching across continents with impunity, like preats.

An alternative would be starting panzers with leadership to reflect the quality of the panzer commanders/crews. In line with your reasoning, Mad, the idea is to make UUs shine in their age. Panzers with mobility would be pretty much like vanilla impi's without the chance to choke with them.

 

[brianb1974]

Remember that the UUs are also part of a package. UUs, UBs, leaderheads, and starting techs should balance together.

That said, east indiamen can be pretty good. Willem rocks water maps.

My big beef with dog soldiers is that they preclude a normal axe rush. I wouldn't mind the dog soldier so much if it didn't preclude the option to build regular axes. Is there a way you could make the dog soldier a replacement for the warrior instead that requires copper? (or would that preclude you from building warriors pre BW which wouldn't work?) If you wanted to beef up the dog soldier a bit, maybe you could improve the totem pole? If it were possible, it would be awesome if you could have a regular dog soldier and then if you hook up copper he gets better--strength 5 or else a couple of combat promotions or something.

My beef with Gaellics is the lack of synergy with the dun. If a Gaellic soldier could walk out of a dun/barracks with 2 guerrilla promotions, 3xp, (and C1 for aggressive, and quick subsequent promotions for charismatic), that would certainly make it formidable.

The jaguar has somewhat the same problem as the dog. I like that you can make them w/o resources. But it would be cool if you had the option of building them 5 strength w/o metals or 6 strength w/ iron.

I really like caracks already. If you gave them an extra carrying capacity, that would pretty much double their effectiveness (too good probably).

I wish there were a spy UU. It could have increased movement (mobility?) or visibility (sentry?) Maybe cheaper missions. Maybe reveal enemy spies in it's visible range so other units could kill them (or a better chance of catching spies in your territory).

I like that teutonic knight as a knight. With beelines and slingshots, macemen can show up pretty darn early, and that knight would be overpowered.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Musketeer: Do whatever you like but leave movement 2 please! Napoleon was known for his speed.

The graphics for the Musketeers is from "The Three Musketeers"' time, not from Napoleon's time.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

Something that's always irked me on conquistadors.

They don't use guns, yet require gunpowder. Remove the gunpowder tech as a requirement.

 

[Ghpstage]

My beef with Gaellics is the lack of synergy with the dun. If a Gaellic soldier could walk out of a dun/barracks with 2 guerrilla promotions, 3xp, (and C1 for aggressive, and quick subsequent promotions for charismatic), that would certainly make it formidable.

Free G2 on Gallics would be overpowered, period.
A group of extremly hard to kill Swordsmen, running quickly across hilltops through enemy territory, with 50% withdraw, a bonus against hilltop cities, with fast access to CR promos on top of this AND can all be done as soon as you get Iron Working if you have copper .

The way its set up now you need to get 1 more XP than the barracks allows for to get G3, altering this would be insane

I agree they do have *some* anti-synergy with the Dun, but its only because the Geurilla line for melee is unique to the Gallic anyway.
To change this you would need to give the Gallic a different bonus to make up for what would be a significant nerf, other free promotions would make it too overpowered. IMO changing Gallics is un-needed and very dangerous for balance.
They are already a pretty good UU.

The Dun on the other hand..... is not bad and on paper, actually looks pretty good. In practice however, it becomes obsolete before it can do anything much. Unless you attempt some kind of bizzare G3 Longbow/Crossbow attack, or farm AI workers with G2 Archers . I've never tried the former, but the latter works well if your careful, discovered it while playing Sitting Bull in fact!

Jags: upped strength to 6, free woodsman, requires copper or iron. In a sense the exact same as Gallics except free Woodsman instead of Guerilla.

I'm not convinced on these changes, firstly its almost identical to the Gallic reducing the uniqueness. Secondly as there are more Forests and Jungles during the units era, and the defense bonus for these tiles is higher anyway, its risking making an already hard to counter unit quite ridiculous. Lucky W3 isn't as useful as G3 when attacking cities directly I guess.

 

[kooboo]

First of all, I'm not a fan of giving big bonuses (like +50% vs Something). Extra 10% or 20% is very potent as well, so don't be surprised I'm giving some weird numbers

Second - I don't agree with some units You want to change, but since You're looking for ideas for those particular ones, I'll try to help anyway

EAIW = everything as it was

OK, what TO change

Panzers - No idea tbh. EAIW + flanking against Artillery? Or some extra withdraw chance.
Ballista Elephant - EAIW + give it very slow defense reducing ability (like poor catapult). No collateral ofc on attack. That's what at least am going to implement in my small mod, but I have no time to test it recently. And see the AI behaviour.
Phalanx - I had some very succesful games using this unit, but if you consider it weak, how about extra "Starts with Cover"? Great shields might help fight archers.
Bowmen (maybe) - I'd leave that one as it is. Safe Ancient Era basicaly.
Dog Soldiers (maybe) - EAIW + 20% withdraw chance.
Musketeer - EAIW + extra 20% vs Melee? Good fencers according to popular culture
Jaguar - EAIW + extra first strike. Feline soul in a warrior .
Impi - EAIW and 5 STR instead of 4 STR?
Holkan - It's impressive unit for very early rush. I'd leave it as it is. Or throw extra first strike (or first strike chance)
Carrack - I always considered troop transporting Caraveles to be quite strong tbh. Astronomy (Galleons) is very expensive and far away tech.
Gallics - I've given them small 10% vs Melee in my small mod and out of a sudden they became very solid unit. If you need why give that bonus, their weapons are more like axes than swords
Camel Archers - I find them ok, but if you need an idea, how about some +25% bonus against Mounted? Horses detest smell of camels.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Panzers: Keshik version. 3 move is nice and fits history well, but it's way too overpowered I'm afraid. On the other hand we have praetorians who just own everything and its OK. We might as well have Panzers who own everything and do it fast.

100% disagree on "overpowered". To make a panzer remotely comparable to the praetorian, you'd have to give it just over 37 strength. Yes, 37 strength, that's right (and also why the prat rapes its era). That's the equivalent over-normal unit for the panzer as a prat is over a sword. Maybe 35 str because after all, the prat does lose the inherent city attack......but one still has to account for how late that UU truly is :/.

Now, the 3 moves. I know mobility has advantages, but 28 str 3 moves is NOT overpowered. The reason is that even a CR II panzer would just be EQUAL to a basic CG II infantry in 40% culture D (although with fortification bonuses the infantry would win...!). It would lose embarrassingly badly to anti-tanks with similar promotions, and both of these units come EARLIER than tanks. Significantly so. For panzers to work, then, you'd need at least spies or bombers (the latter making you wait even LONGER to use them) of else the 3 movement points wouldn't be too useful. Bombers can get intercepted by...anti-tanks, too. And if the city is a hill city or the infantry gets CG III, it's STILL not a gimme that the panzers would win.

Explain to me how that's overpowering then? If you wait TOO much longer to really mass up the panzers, you're going to get picked apart badly by gunships or mech infantry...and none of this factored in enemy rails to move its OWN troops of ANY kind faster, including collateral units, OR air power. A 3 move tank being "overpowered" is a joke. It would be useful, yes, but nowhere NEAR in league with a prat aka 37 strength tank.

Don't cry if I ask you that but......... why are Keshiks so untouchable??? I must have some problems in using them properly...

Keshiks are in a similar class as praetorians, just a little bit weaker (except on the faster speeds). The reason is that they can gain first strike immunity and still have a first strike or become that much more powerful with the bland but good combat line. Ignoring terrain is icing but nice. They also gain promos faster due to the UB, so they tend to hold better promotions than anything they encounter. Combat II shock horse archers with a first strike are bad news even to spears, and keshiks can get there pretty fast...the others just get flanking for 50% withdraw and a near-guarantee to damage the defender (sometimes win), or pure combat to lay hurtings on non-melee (combat III keshiks are pretty formidable vs archers and will tend to even overpower CG and some culture defense). The amount of land you can take with massed keshiks is pretty amazing, actually, although the leaders require tight economy control because their traits don't help you pay for a lot of extra cities directly (you can use barracks whipchop overflow or kublai's cheap libraries, but other than that you're on your own). This is a hidden strength of rome...especially JC ----> the leaders actually have GOOD traits, which is overlooked due to the good UU.

 

[CornPlanter]

The graphics for the Musketeers is from "The Three Musketeers"' time, not from Napoleon's time.

I know but madscientist wanted improve Musketeers on the grounds of Napoleons conquests. So I used the same point of view. And I agree that Napoleon isn't near as awesome in game as he was historically. Especially in the hands of AI; in human hands he's very good warmonger due to the trait combo. I wish to see France improved

 

[Terrance888]

I have an Unorthadox change for Preats: Str 7 Swordsmen, No city attack ability, +Drill 1 and access to the drill line: why? They were drilled!