[Balancing] War Cart Poll

[GT_OKEZ]

I think it would be pretty sweet to see a new policy card earned early in the game (military tradition?) that gives a buff to anti-cav units like +5 additional combat strength vs calvary and additional -25% production cost for anti cav units) to counter the awful horse meta in multiplayer.

I just realized this could make Hoplites broken but you shouldn't be using calvary to fight them in the first place.

 

[lordhaw]

In my current game, The Sumerians used the war cart to great effect. They were hemmed in by city states and took out city state after city state with alarming speed (they are just south of me on the map), taking out 5 of them quickly until their advanced was slowed by myself (English) and the Chinese. I might have to try them next to see how they play but seeing them as an adversary in my current game seemed kind of scary actually until I saw they are less aggressive going up against Civs rather than city states.

 

[The Highwayman]

I'd start with removing the immunity to Anti Cavalry Units and give them a maintenance cost of 1 gold per turn. This way opposing players have the option to beeline Bronze Working for defense while Sumeria has to at least pay something for spamming War Carts. I think it would be a reasonable nerf without destroying the Civ.

 

[Aheadatime]

Not if barbarian spearmen get a bonus against the war carts. They are so convenient as a barbarian hunting scout replacement....

Yeah, too convenient. Once you're done scouting and clearing barbs, you suddenly have an army to conquer your neighbor with.

 

[whyidie]

No nerfs. In the AIs hands it nice to have on the map as it warrants consideration. In human hands its stress relief.

I still get choked up thinking about nerfed Maria Theresa and Hiawatha. No more AI lobotomies.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Other. Make them stronger against city states and barbs, nerf them slightly (against anti-cavs and/or range, possibly make them weaker against cities). Should keep them fairly strong as an AI but not as effective in multiplayer. They have no counter basically

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I think that if you gave them maintenance costs, that would nerf them for the human player, but not really the AI (with its gold bonuses).

 

[whyidie]

Other. Make them stronger against city states and barbs, nerf them slightly (against anti-cavs and/or range, possibly make them weaker against cities). Should keep them fairly strong as an AI but not as effective in multiplayer. They have no counter basically

I hate multiplayer, only because it presents legitimate reasons to nerf

How was Atilla handled in MP ? Not as much of a factor due to city defenses/tech tree placement ?

 

[isau]

I would drop the lack of vulnerability to Spears. I'm fine with it being a strong unit.

Also agree Spearman (and Swordsmen) need buffs.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I hate multiplayer, only because it presents legitimate reasons to nerf

How was Atilla handled in MP ? Not as much of a factor due to city defenses/tech tree placement ?

Lol, I only played mp in CiV in closed games with friends, or LAN games in the same room with said friends. IIRC Attila was kind of mediocre lower-mid tier civ. Only hilarity was-- you could get a battering ram out of a ruin (I forget which unit upgraded to it) and every once in a while someone would get said ruin battering ram near a relatively unprotected city and cause havoc.

 

[whyidie]

Lol, I only played mp in CiV in closed games with friends, or LAN games in the same room with said friends. IIRC Attila was kind of mediocre lower-mid tier civ. Only hilarity was-- you could get a battering ram out of a ruin (I forget which unit upgraded to it) and every once in a while someone would get said ruin battering ram near a relatively unprotected city and cause havoc.

Was the warrior that upgraded, IIRC. I think it was the lateness of the tech that gave other Civs the chance to prepare for Atilla if you didn't have ruin luck.

 

[Al Bundy]

In the poll is missing the key characteristic in my opinion: maintenance. Now it is zero. Make it one gold to avoid that constant spamming.

 

[Kimurae]

I think this is more related to the current design flaws regarding science and districts.

Sumeria IMHO was meant to be a civilization that needs to rush very early and establish regional dominance before the medieval era. Since after the classical era they are not supposed to have any major benefit.

So you have to be real careful when it comes to nerfing the war cart. And I would wait until they first address the science/district issues.

On the other hand, I think nerfing the war cart so its immunity only applies to ancient era units would not detract from the unit's purpose.

 

[Kruos]

In the poll is missing the key characteristic in my opinion: maintenance. Now it is zero. Make it one gold to avoid that constant spamming.

That true, maybe I should have added this option as it is an absolutely relevant one. As I explained in a post above, IMO the 'free maintenace' thing should be remove for any military unit (and thus all military should have an upkeep cost of 1 at least), it is why I did not put this option in the vote, as it is a more global lever in my vision. But yeah maybe it would have been better to add this option.

I think this is more related to the current design flaws regarding science and districts.

Sumeria IMHO was meant to be a civilization that needs to rush very early and establish regional dominance before the medieval era. Since after the classical era they are not supposed to have any major benefit.

So you have to be real careful when it comes to nerfing the war cart. And I would wait until they first address the science/district issues.

On the other hand, I think nerfing the war cart so its immunity only applies to ancient era units would not detract from the unit's purpose.

Regarding Sumeria I share this point of vue too, but I think they went a little bit too far with the War Cart power.

 

[Kruos]

@All : Thanks guys for the constructive feedback, in particular I am personaly pretty fan of the "apply anti-cav immunity perk only against barbs" one. I have seen interesting ideas in these thread, and I hope the dev will see and consider them too.

Keep up the good feedack!

 

[Jarms48]

I choose "Reduce its move to 2 (+1 if on flat land) AND Remove its immunity to anti-cav perk" because honestly, something that's stronger, can be built earlier than Chariots, has no maintenance, and is cheaper to build/buy, is pretty powerful in itself.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Make them available along with chariots, and give them a point of maintnenance. They'd still be very powerful but not quite as broken. Surely anything with wheels should at least require the tech for it. Maybe consider removing the lack of weaknesses as well.

Oh, and buff the ziggurat.

 

[Ravenwild]

Maintenance is definately the way to go. The War Cart is one of the few reason to actually choose Sumeria so it shouldn't be nerfed too much.

 

[malitano]

Just played a MP game really strong unit needs a small nerf I would be ok with anti cavalry so that spearmen can perform a little better against them

 

[Halcyan2]

What i really dont understand is why they can even build normal heavy chariot at all? I mean come on! Its more expensive, slower, and weaker. Why would you ever build it?

For a city state quest?

I actually have built a Heavy Chariot (as non-Sumer) specifically to get an envoy with a city state.

Not knowing how the programming for city state quests is like, I don't know whether it would have issues assigning the quest to build a unique unit (like the War Cart) instead of the standard Heavy Chariot.