Banned resource graphics mods

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by anarres
...Please, this is plain offensive. It's simply slanderous... [/B]

It may be offensive - but it is not slanderous.

Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word.

Unfortunately, both forms of defamation require the injured party - yourself - to be identified by name.

As anarres is not a full name, Bamspeedy has been guilty of neither.

EDIT Offensive stuff deleted due to a guilty conscience

 

[cracker]

Anarres,

I consider the subject of whether the DrAlimentado graphic mod is a cheat or not to be a closed subject. I have carefully looked at it and determined that it is a cheat. It does not really matter much if you think it is acceptable because it is banned from use in the games.

It is definitely a cheat that exposes 75% more than an extra chance of unfair visibility of the resource.

The origin of the cheat is accidental but in some ways is based on inexperience to understand that inserting more graphics elements that artificially reveal the resources truly is disruptive and unfair. The extra cheat factors that have been added are graphic symbols that could also confuse the representation of the productivity of the resource squares and including them in the graphics the way they are currently presented carries with it more negative impact that can possibly be offset by the "coolness" value.

It really does reduce the requirement for strategic thought and risk taking in any game where it is used and it is unbalancing to have every player feel that they would be virtually required to use this sort of exploit just to play in a game.

 

[ltcoljt]

One thing I have been impressed about, the GOTM community seems to be a pretty classy group. Not a lot of crap in the forums.

People who can disagree without being disagreeable. Let us all seek the better part of our nature and share that.

I thank Mr. Cracker for the work he does on GOTM.

 

[Smirk]

I recently decided to a graphic mod of this nature for this very purpose, after seeing that other mod I tried it out and while the food and shields I could do without I liked the faces and the visibility of the other stuff, but at the same time I disliked the impartial view I was getting with the FOW. Likely for the same reasons you think its a cheat.

So what is the fix going to be, is Dave's post on the edges of fog acceptable? Does that contain the images? I haven't looked into it yet, but I had the same idea in mind. It does seem odd that this is possible, especially for PTW where multiplayer cheats should be taken more seriously.

I really doing this because I don't like the specific smilies they used. Much like the happy face mod I made a couple years ago.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I'm sorry Moonsinger, but you should really think this over. The opening stage is critical. If someone can see where the nearby good tiles are before other players can that is very significant.

I agree with you that the opening stage is critical, but if you take the wrong turn, you would still have at least another 200 turns to correct your mistake. The opening move is very important, but it is not the only thing that secures the final victory. I think after the first dozen turns, they can't really cheat much with those graphic mods.

Surely someone who heavily depends on having the best possible start (in contrast to the 'milkers') knows this very well.

I take that as a compliment! We milkers are not too bad after all. Not only that our herds are happy, we usually are very easy going as well.

As I already wrote on the General Forum before I knew that someone was actually using it for the GOTM, using this particular exploit is cheating. There is no other word for it.

I concur. However, I believe that we should treat them as innocent until proving guilty. May be the cheating wasn't intentional. May be they weren't aware of the "unwritten" rule until now.

 

[CruddyLeper]

I agree with you Moonsinger. Pointing fingers and shouting a lot is not going to improve the GOTM for anyone. I can understand people being disappointed or upset. But rude posts or accusing posts or denial posts or any other sort of negative post isn't going to help the GOTM.

 

[Ribannah]

CruddyLeper,

I have tried without shouting for six months, to no avail. So have others.

After Cracker's response I fear that this is only the top of the iceberg, too.

We are here to try and learn how to improve our game. If in this place what we learn is that we must use exploits and cheats to do well, and that this is fully allowed until you are caught, upon which no punishment or correction follows, this kills the entire purpose of the GOTM.

 

[tao]

IMHO, none of the top players have used graphic mods with the intent to cheat. As the issue is now widely discussed, their are a number of alternatives:

1. Atari (formerly Firaxis) implements a blocker
2. the gotm stuff tries to design games in a way that the cheats don't give any significant advantage
3. those who cheat best get an advantage
4. mods giving an advantage are banned.
   [/list=1] 1. will not happen anytime soon;
   2. creates another burden and may lead to less enjoyable games;
   3. cannot be prevented;
   4. is my solution of choice.
   
   How to implement it is another issue. There may e.g. be a list of allowed mods ( I myself now use colored mood smileys on citizens and they help a lot without cheating, I suppose).
   
   But I think this is not an issue to get really agitated about. Let's stay civilized "sine ira et studio" as Caesar might have said.

 

[Overlag]

i find it funny that you seem to think that some gfx mods are cheating, but some arnt? If the gfx mod uses the tile size then how can it be cheating?

ok, so you can spot them easyer, but these "happy mood" faces allow you to spot there moods easyer, isnt that cheating too by your theory?

So now we all have to downgrade to Civ3's orignal crappy gfx?

 

[Bouchehog]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
It may be offensive - but it is not slanderous.

Slander refers to the spoken word. Libel refers to the written word.

Unfortunately, both forms of defamation require the injured party - yourself - to be identified by name.

As anarres is not a full name, Bamspeedy has been guilty of neither.

Your profile says "anarchist". Your complaint suggests this is not the case.

I don’t feel that this was either the time or place for this. Quite apart from the glaring inaccuracies within your post, I don’t believe that Anarres was using the term ‘slander’ as a prelude to some action in tort; nor do I believe that you considered this to be the case. Accusing someone of cheating (whether directly or indirectly) is a serious matter in a forum that is both competitive and dear to the alleged cheat. Don’t belittle this.

Libel refers to defamation in a permanent form and thus would include broadcasts and recordings, this forum obviously comes under this head. Furthermore parties need not be identified by name, it is enough that the statement was capable of referring to them (a matter of law) and that a reasonable person would understand it as referring to him. Anarres may not be a specific name, but this is of no consequence.

As regards using this mod to ‘cheat’. I entirely agree that it seems to give an unfair advantage. I can’t say that I’ve ever used it, but if someone intended to cheat then there are far better ways. Surely this imparts a far lesser advantage that someone who reads a spoiler thread or opens the map in an editor program. In my opinion labelling it a ‘cheat’ simply hurts peoples feelings and rightly so. However I doubt that this was intentionally done.

In competitive gaming people will always push the boundaries of legality and I think that this is entirely reasonable. No one would argue that using the combat calculator was ‘cheating’ and yet this too imparts a significant advantage over someone who doesn’t bother to work out his calculations. It is up to the organisers to decide where the line falls between cheating and merely competitive advantage. Banning such packs seems perfectly reasonable and this issue seems to have been blown up beyond all reasonable proportions. It would have been far better to merely state that they were no longer allowed, rather than throwing around such potentially hurtful language.

 

[jack merchant]

To me, the 'palace jump' looks like a far bigger exploit than any resource graphic mod. Although it requires more strategizing, the economic benefits of using it for an instant second core are to my mind far bigger than the placement of your first city could ever be.

 

[anarres]

{fist banging demand message removed}
Moderator Action: Anarres, you are not the editor du jour and your opinon here is clearly in conflict with the policy I have set forth regarding the use of graphics that either accidentally or on purpose introduce cheats into the game.

Most if not all of this post properly belonged in a PrivateMessage if your intent was to accomplish anything other than cause disruption and draw negative attention to yourself. This is the last time I will need to intervene to counteract you rabblerousing in direct conflict with the policies that I feel are necessary. Lets move on. The cheat graphics are out. Do not post another post in this tone in any public forum. There is no argument and your role in the issue is closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Darkness]

@ Jack: What do you mean? An ordinary palace jump, by GL or hand-build new palace or the "Free palace Jump"?
IMHO there's nothing wrong with the first and although I'd probably never use the second, I also have no real objections to it, but I do consider it somewhat of an exploit....

 

[hotrod0823]

@Darkness: I cannot speak for Jack but I think he is talking about the "free jump" by building a FP right next store to your palace and then Manipulating Population with workers etc. you get 2 instant cores. Using a leader to move the palace later doesn't "exploit" the mechanism on how a palace is moved. I understand the argument that is does take planning, workers etc. but some how it just feels like you are using the weakness of the system on how a new palace city is determined to get something for nothing. Using a leader requires a bit of luck and a hand build at least requires some shields. A free jump doesn't require anything more than a bunch of workers and an understanding of a broken system.

 

[jack merchant]

I mean the free palace jump where you disband your capital -
too much tricking of the game mechanics if you ask me.

On edit, Hotrod explains my objections much better than I did. thanks

 

[Bamspeedy]

anarres-Cracker may have been referring to me. He is wrong, but I can see where he may have thought that I was supporting the modpack because of the 'cheat'.

In the first spoiler thread (page 3), I posted some screenshots comparing what was able to be seen. I had said that I would use the modpack in future games because a certain resource was *more* visible than the default graphics. Someone said they could see the resource, but if they used default graphics, you could only see a few pixels of it, so it was very difficult to see (but not impossible). I said I would use the graphics in the future to see them easier instead of bringing out my magnifying glass (and before they were declared a cheat). I had only considered that resource, and not others where it is impossible to see without the enchanced graphics.

I posted the link to that thread to make others aware of it, because I didn't feel it was right for me (and a few others) to use it and others not knowing about it. I was thinking others could benefit from it, so they too, wouldn't have to bring out their magnifying glass. I was trying to be helpful, just like when I alert people to the 'mood badges'.

Now for the graphic modpacks thread-I was supporting the mod in that thread, because I felt players should have the right to do what they want and use whatever graphics they want in personal games or games where everyone is aware of that modpack. The graphic modpack (and all other mods), aim for an intended audience, usually for solo-game players. And in solo games (non-competitive) there really isn't any 'cheats', IMO. Cracker did over-react and imply that the graphics were intentionally geared for people looking for a cheat in competitive games. I was not supporting it because I was supporting cheating like Cracker thinks.

 

[cracker]

Bamspeedy, just to make it clear, I was not intending to imply that you where advocating using the graphics for cheating.

If I had been more attentive to things in the early stages I would have followed up on your post about the extra leaky wheat visibility. I apologize for being distracted by other tasks and semi asleep at the wheel.

Your perspective was actually right on in this case in that the newest round of mod graphics really did introduce an unfair competitive advantage that would essentially and unfairly force every player to switch to the mod graphics PLUS would have significantly changed game play and strategy.

By definition Graphics Mods should be things that change the graphics and appearance features without actively changing game play. Changing the color of "wheat" to make it easier to legitimately see against plains or floodplain is not the same as changing the appearance of wheat to make it artificially visible from all the surrounding terrain squares when it should not be. The problem is that there is a gray area of transition that exists when the content of the graphics mods need to pass some minimum standards that this modification clearly fails.

Adding the blips to legitimately make resources harder to visually miss on the map is a good thing and this incident just forces us to incorporate this feature into the games as we move to actively suppress the exploit/cheat element that has been exposed.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by cracker

As I indicated, prior to May 3rd this was mostly a non-issue. Effective with Gotm20 we will implement an in-game solution that substantially eliminates these features from the potential issues column.

I didn't use the mod in question. I did find a different mod that greatly helped with spotting resources. I do understand the reason you feel the need to ban resource mods.

I must admit I am very unhappy to here this news. Being partially color blind finding a mod that helps me find resources / luxuries easier was a godsend. Before I found that mod to help me it was almost impossible for me to spot coal in jungle. I will still attempt GOTM#20, but if it proves to difficult because of change it will be my last. I remember spending a fortune in time trying to read the map to find these resources.

I do hope your solution doesn't disable the ability to use things like Snoopy's improved graphics. These are much easier on my eyes then the ugly graphics that game with the game.


================


EDIT:
Cross post with Cracker as I had this window open for reply for ages. It looks like one of my issues may already be resolved with the comment from Crakcer Adding the blips to legitimately make resources harder to visually miss on the map is a good thing and this incident just forces us to incorporate this feature into the games as we move to actively suppress the exploit/cheat element that has been exposed.


Now the question is what happens with Snoopy's?

 

[Dr Alimentado]

I would like to state 'for the record' that I have never played GOTM, and that when I made my little mod it was purely from a benevolent desire, not a malicous one.

Jack, the FOW template is very useful, I will have a go at making a GOTM compliant resources.pcx. What I need to know is what GOTM players want in such a mod as I doubt I can fit all the info in that is in my current mod.
It seems that an enhanced visibility mod is what is needed most (without any extra info?) but (any and all of you) let me know precisely what's desired and I'll see what I can do.

 

[Bouchehog]

I have to say that I didn't discover these resources until this thread, but they do seem extremely useful - not least for colour blindness. If a similar pack could be done without jeapordising the rules then that could only be a good thing.

Personally I'm all for both the smiley faces/letters and the food information. I know that the amount of food will vary under despotism, but then it will of course vary when simply irrigated!