Banned resource graphics mods

[Smirk]

Originally posted by cracker
By definition Graphics Mods should be things that change the graphics and appearance features without actively changing game play. Changing the color of "wheat" to make it easier to legitimately see against plains or floodplain is not the same as changing the appearance of wheat to make it artificially visible from all the surrounding terrain squares when it should not be.

The problem is that there is a gray area of transition that exists when the content of the graphics mods need to pass some minimum standards that this modification clearly fails.

I believe you are off the mark here in priniciple. I agree with the solution to the problem, disallowing them, but your heavy handed approach towards someone's creative expression and free contribution to the civ community is out of line.
The problem is Firaxis and their own controls and art standards. You either have FOW or you don't and you either show the tile or don't, it would be trivial to *not* draw a resource that is hidden under FOW much like what is currently done with units. It seems obvious that the few pixels you see of the wheat is an art error, why show a bit of wheat but nothing else? That is the problem not graphic mods.

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by bewareofgnomes
if you were willing to spend 5 minutes looking at black stuff, you prolly deserve the knowledge.

I can see the smily on top of the tundra tile pretty easy without any close looking. I also have an app that allows me to zoom in on the windows screen and its cake to then see this, as well as some of the other more visible locations. So it doesn't even take five minutes really.

 

[flexo]

<homer>DUH!</homer> I thought it was about the FOG unit. Sorry, my bad!

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Hurricane
Also, it is impossible to check if a player has been using a graphics mod or not (unless he is stupid enough to post a screenshot when using that mod).

I wouldn't be surprised if such information were stored in the savefiles.

Edit: A nice trick of course is, for the sole purpose of posting the screenshot, to temporarily run the unmodded version ....

Going back to the original crappy graphics would be a bug step backwards, IMHO.

Personally I think the original graphics are great, but don't we have an offer already to design alternative graphics that do not peep out?

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Personally I think the original graphics are great, but don't we have an offer already to design alternative graphics that do not peep out?

I agree. To me this argument is simple. The design intent of the game is to use the original graphics. If people suffer from a visual impairment that makes the use of the original graphics difficult then lets take up the offer and get a bespoke graphics set built and certified by the staff. People would then have a choice of two, take it or leave it.

I doubt if Cracker and his staff between them have enough fingers to plug all the holes in the dyke when it comes to people cheating. The best that can be done IMHO is to set a simple and robust framework for those that choose not to cheat to work within.

It's difficult for inexperienced players (like me) when the rules are "woolly". For instance, I e-mail my game between home and work. At work I play with unmodified graphics, wheras at home I use Snoopys terrain. Now I'm not sure if I'm cheating, albeit inadvertantly.

 

[ControlFreak]

Thankfully, the tone in this thread has already calmed down before I returned with my gathered quotes from elsewhere.

First, OT, I have used the resource graphics in the past and they definitely speed up my ability to locate resources and are a fine addition to the game (as are the smiley mood badges). But, I have on occasion, gained preknowledge of resources and (more commonly) luxuries because of the added icon. I doubt this has had a huge impact on my final score in either QSC or GOTM. I know it has not effected GOTM18 or GOTM19 because I have not installed the resource (or mood badges) on the new laptop I've been playing on. Obviously, I can play without these resources. But I definitely think they help me to play faster, while not gaining a whole lot of cheating info. But some cheating IS cheating.

I conceed that Cracker is the authoritative voice here and unlike a democracy, his word is law. Players wishing to compete in GOTM must acknowledge this. However, I'm also sure that Cracker has no desire to use the heavy hand of supreme power and in general has shown decent tolerance and second chances are given often. This said, Cracker's recent condemnation of certain graphic mod builders and their mods seemed out of character and less compassionate than previous dealings with "potential exploits". This may have prompted responses from accused people.

I have not gone to the other threads to read the previous discussions that came before this thread regarding the exploit but I suspect some extra baggage has been carried into this discussion from previous encounters. There appear to be four groups here:

1. Cracker - overseer and supreme GOTM power
2. Strict competitors demanding a rule book or at the very least, defenable precise rulings for all GOTM tournaments.
3. Graphic Modders - creators of graphic mods that a) help players enjoyment of the game and b) intentionally or unintentionally provide spoiler information about a resource, 1 tile outside of the viewable tiles.
4. GOTMers like me who want everyone to understand where everyone else is coming from, put it all in perspective, acknowledge the arguements of the otherside and come to a happy medium that provides the great community and fun gaming experience we've come to expect.

I hope group 4 prevails

Just as a reminder, it was a scant five months ago that Matrix posted this:

Originally posted by Matrix in his farewell speech:
It was fun, but not anymore. Goodbye.
And it's not april fool's day.

I've planned on quitting for some time now and discussed it in the staff forum and with the GOTM police. They all would hate to see me go and convinced me to stay, TF in particular. But I loathe administrating the GOTM now and have lost so much interest in it that I start avoiding this forum. The consequence is I suck as admin (as Cartouche Bee had pointed this out already in a subtle way ).

The reason of it all is simply the fact that making the results was not enough. After Valeri Kouznetsov was caught cheating (coincidentally by me) some noticed there are a lot more cheaters and the coming of the GOTM police was necessary. That was the point I started getting desinterested. All I want is to make these funny results. And letting the GOTM police check the savegames isn't enough. I suddenly had to coordinate everything.

I sincerely hope that:
a) Cracker can hang in there and not be emotionally scarred by his responsibities in GOTM.
b) Players can follow the rules set forth by the GOTM administration.
c) Players can provide constructive feedback to pressure the GOTM staff into changes that are good for the community
d) GOTM staff can listen, implement and clearly post their rational regarding changes or lack of changes so that, while players may disagree, they can also understand the reasons, not feel they are taken advantage of, and stay competing at very high level.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Darkness]

Excellent post ControlFreak!

 

[Yndy]

ControlFreak, I don’t want to sound rude but I have to ‘slap’ you a harsh answer:
-Cracker has been ruthless in instances of less importance than this and you (we) have to deal with that as complaining won’t get us anywhere. The graphics issue is a ‘cheap’ exploit, and falls within any definition of such and given it be allowed everybody will have to use the said graphics to remain competitive.
-Reading old stuff is good and commendable but you are using the quote out of the spirit in which it has been written.
Regarding your hopes and aspirations I think you (we) can:
- be sure cracker will hang in there
- always hope players are fair and with a little help from the staff (and the occasional disqualification of the offenders)
- help with constructive feedback and direct potential delicate issues to cracker directly and not to the forum
- be sure the staff is doing its best
That being said, I’m not really a graphic mod fan but I still use Snoopy’s and the happy faces. The resources are pretty useless IMO if your eyesight is reasonably good. Yes I have problems spotting the coal, saltpeter and rubber but it is doable.
It was fine as long as graphic mods were OK but I too, agree with cracker’s attitude. Or you can go with davemcw’s mod that hides the picture to show the letter but that would probably lead to a complicated list of allowed and disallowed mods.

 

[Ribannah]

Yndy,

There is no need for a 'disallowed' list. A very simple way of dealing with these things is: if someone would like to use a mod, calculation aid or whatever that is not part of the original game, (s)he should ask for permission, and if granted it is added to the 'allowed' list. Same for using an exploit that is part of the original game.

Although I didn't agree with the decision, DaveMcW did very well when he followed his part of this procedure regarding diplomacy during the end-of-turn report. He and everyone else should and could have done the same for using a graphics mod.

Of course to have this work we do need to have an 'allowed' list in the first place. I am asking once more to make such a list.

 

[CdB]

I also totally agree with Shillen & LKendter.
I would hope we could have some approved ModPacks such as the centered DaveMcW ressource ModPack.
I found the letter & smiley to make it convenient with my game play.

And as stated many times in this thread:
- this is just a game
- there are other ways of cheating.
- is ModPack that big advantage (vs carefull planning & strategy)

 

[ControlFreak]

Originally posted by Yndy
ControlFreak, I don’t want to sound rude but I have to ‘slap’ you a harsh answer:

Actually, I was expecting to get 'slapped' harder. Your post seemed to agree with everything I've said except the first line. I wasn't really sure what you meant by:

Originally posted by Yndy
Cracker has been ruthless in instances of less importance than this and you (we) have to deal with that as complaining won’t get us anywhere. The graphics issue is a ‘cheap’ exploit, and falls within any definition of such and given it be allowed everybody will have to use the said graphics to remain competitive.

I assume you mean to say that Cracker's response to this issue is no worse than some of his other responses, while I had posted that it seemed "out of character". I admit that he has responded quite suddenly and vehemently to other issues besides this one. I meant only to balance his comments with the responders who seemed to have been blind-sided or overly-offended by his statements. In short, I was trying to be diplomatic and not side with Cracker or with the graphic mod proponents.

I also agree with you and Cracker that this is a cheat. I would love to have davemcw's mod that hides the picture to show the letter but would not want to force this decision on the many players who prefer to play with the pictures AND the letters or a different version with the colored boxes.

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by ControlFreak
I assume you mean to say that Cracker's response to this issue is no worse than some of his other responses, while I had posted that it seemed "out of character". I admit that he has responded quite suddenly and vehemently to other issues besides this one. I meant only to balance his comments with the responders who seemed to have been blind-sided or overly-offended by his statements. In short, I was trying to be diplomatic and not side with Cracker or with the graphic mod proponents.

The point is that the mod creator (my brother) was taken on by cracker outside of the GOTM arena, and told that he was a "cheat", outside of the context of GOTM. Many worse things were both said directly and implied. This is why I came here angry at cracker. This is typical of why I won't play GOTM.

cracker, please don't edit my post this time, just because you don't like it. I have a right to speak my mind, it breaks no forum rules.

 

[ControlFreak]

anarres@ Thank you for the clarification. You're comments seem more appropriate in context. I hope you and Cracker can settle your differences and you can join us in playing the GOTM.

 

[Matt_G]

You will never stop people from cheating if they are intent on doing so. Get used to it!
For instance, people can reload, they change the order they move units or change builds, and as such change the random seed and the outcome of a battle. There isn't any way to know they did this either.
You have to trust that people will play in a honorable fashion.
If there isn't any trust by the sponsers in the players, or the players in each other, then what exactly is the point?

This thread has shown that the attitude here is 'If it's possible to cheat you will. We can't trust you.'

After reading this thread, it's nice to know that my decision to never participate in the GoTM is still a sound decision, because there isn't any trust in this community.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Hello again

Here's a quick go at making a resources.pcx with non-revealing icons. I have only added icons for strategic and luxury items as I'm still not sure if any more info is wanted for GOTM games.

Resources.pcx :

With Fog (smallest version daveMcW posted) overlaid :

I haven't done anything to make the bonus resources more visible, icons could be added (it could be a generic single icon such as the lux icon) or maybe an outline could be added. the colours could also be made richer to give more contrast to the background graphics.

One thing to note is that there is more leeway mid-way down each square as the fog extends further to the edges here.

DaveMcW - I'm not trying to usurp the good work you have been doing on this so if I'm treading on your toes tell me and I'll 'back-off'

 

[Dr Alimentado]

And here's a quick and rough outline for coal and wheat, to give an idea of how it might look:

This is only a quick attempt, the outline could be made a bit smoother with a little work.

 

[DaviddesJ]

In the past few weeks I discovered two things which add significantly to my enjoyment of Civ3: graphics mods, and the GOTM. It's too bad that they are being portrayed as in opposition to each other. People prefer different interfaces. I don't like to remember all of the details of all of the different resource bonuses, so I really like having the little food, shield, gold symbols on the tiles. That's why I installed the DrAlimentado mods. I really like them.

Subsequently I did notice that they give an edge in detecting some resources, which is too bad. I wish Atari would fix this (simply by not rendering the resource, but only the base tile graphics, if the tile is under the shroud).

I can also, reluctantly, understand a rule for GOTM, that mods should fit certain rules (i.e., concealed by the shroud).

But I hope we don't overdo it. If it comes to it, I'll simply play the GOTM myself, and not send it in. That way I can play however I want, and still compare with what other people do (via the forums). I don't care who "wins", especially since there's no way to prevent real cheating (e.g., play the whole game from a savefile, then do it again "for real"). I think the value of the scoring should be as a way for players to judge their own results. Not as a prize that people get so angry about. It would be fun to know that I scored 6th highest (or whatever). I don't really care whether one or two of the people above me cheated, or not. I hope we don't poison the atmosphere over this.

Just my two cents. Thanks for all of the work on the GOTM!

P.S. Are non-resource graphics mods also banned? For example, I use a modified mine graphic which is more visible than the regular one. So I might be able to see an enemy mine under the shroud, where it would be invisible in the regular graphics.

 

[DaviddesJ]

DrAlimentado, could you make a version like your example above, but with the food/shield/gold symbols in a straight line across the middle (so they are under the thickest part of the shroud)? It would be pretty cluttered, but I'd like to try it and see if it's useful.

 

[Bamspeedy]

DaviddesJ-I can't think of any situation where seeing an enemy mine would give you any extra advantage, or improve your strategic situation. So, I don't think anyone should have a problem with the mines, IMO.

The main problem is bonus resources (extra food) because food is so critical in the early game. Luxuries and strategics can also influence games, but to a lesser extent than having extra food in the capital. But on cramped maps where getting to a resource before the AI does could also dramatically change the outcome of a game.

 

[Ribannah]

It would help you to find the enemy. Better be strict.