Bannor cottages

[vorshlumpf]

We are going to test having Bannor Town's spawn Demagog's during a crusade. Doing so lowers them from a Town to a Hamlet, and as before Demagog's will abandon the player when the Crusade ends.

Losing a town for a STR 6 unit that won't stick around? Sorry, but this sounds a bit extreme. Perhaps it could be because I've never used Crusade up to this point, but I can't see wanting to use it at all with this addition.

- Niilo

 

[loki1232]

Well in times of war your crusade shall last until you wipe the demon scum from the earth, and thus so shall your valiant crusaders.

Don't worry I'll test this out and see how it works.

 

[Uberness]

Love the idea of getting demagog from the towns, not so much having the town lose 2-3 gold per demagog, might cripple there economy abit.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I see in the change log that Kael has made it village instead of hamlet. That makes it a bit easier to swallow.

- Niilo

 

[Kael]

I see in the change log that Kael has made it village instead of hamlet. That makes it a bit easier to swallow.

- Niilo

Yeah, I just got done with a Bannor game. We are playing with it. You guys know how the process goes, tweak tweak tweak and try to get it right.

 

[Bad Player]

What about +1 sight radius to Bannor cottage squares (can you do it without requiring a unit in the tile?)?

 

[onedreamer]

Losing a town for a STR 6 unit that won't stick around? Sorry, but this sounds a bit extreme. Perhaps it could be because I've never used Crusade up to this point, but I can't see wanting to use it at all with this addition.

- Niilo

Fully sign this "petition". The implementation of this idea sounds more like a penalty than a bonus to me. As the civic Crusade already does, after all. I can't imagine any situation where I would want to use a civic that offers higher penalties than bonuses. Let's remember that this is still a strategic game. Roleplaying elements are more than welcome (I'm a roleplayer fanatic myself) but they should be subordinate to strategy, hence a roleplaying element should make sense strategically first of all.

 

[DMN]

Losing a town for a STR 6 unit that won't stick around? Sorry, but this sounds a bit extreme.

You wouldn't really lose the town - the village will soon develop to a town again, and all you lose is some gold per turn for a couple of turns.

Maybe the bonus unit should scale with technology, though. I think that in the late game, a Str 6 unit might really be so useless that you'd rather want to keep your towns.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd have to say that BCalchet's idea sounds best to me.

 

[felwar]

The problem with reducing the town level for a unit is that you now introduce a varying penalty based on game speed. On a quick game having your town reduced one level may not be a big deal, but on epic or marathon this would really hurt.

 

[Mesix]

The problem with reducing the town level for a unit is that you now introduce a varying penalty based on game speed. On a quick game having your town reduced one level may not be a big deal, but on epic or marathon this would really hurt.

The value of the bonus unit would also scale to the game speed. Building a similar unit would take more time in a slower game so the unit would be more beneficial than in a faster game.

 

[Mesix]

Instead of having the bonus units spawn like treants and reduce the town size, why not make the mechanic player selectable? The Bannor player could have to option to call up his militia during a crusade and a unit would spawn. This would give you the best of oth worlds. If you want the unit, trade the town. If you want to keep the town, then don't call up the militia.

edit: If the mechanic is implemented like this then the player should have a limit to the number of units that can be called up each turn.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Instead of having the bonus units spawn like treants and reduce the town size, why not make the mechanic player selectable? The Bannor player could have to option to call up his militia during a crusade and a unit would spawn. This would give you the best of oth worlds. If you want the unit, trade the town. If you want to keep the town, then don't call up the militia.

edit: If the mechanic is implemented like this then the player should have a limit to the number of units that can be called up each turn.

It could be said that adopting the civic in the first place is saying that you want the units.

 

[onedreamer]

The value of the bonus unit would also scale to the game speed. Building a similar unit would take more time in a slower game so the unit would be more beneficial than in a faster game.

the time it takes to build that unit, under any speed setting, is not comparable to the time it takes for a village to grow to town and the commerce loss. The time is not, in any case, 2 turns as above mentioned. Let's also remember that we're not speaking of one town here, but of ANY town...

It could be said that adopting the civic in the first place is saying that you want the units.

The objection is that as it stands in FFH 0.20, Crusade is very unappealing because other civics in the field are much better, and the addition of this element will most likely refrain players to use the civic even more than now.

 

[felwar]

The value of the bonus unit would also scale to the game speed. Building a similar unit would take more time in a slower game so the unit would be more beneficial than in a faster game.

The value of units actually scales badly with game speed because once the unit is built, the speed at which war is conducted does not change. Units move the same speeds, heal at the same rate, and that raider that took 2 turns to build instead of 1 turn to build can still level a town from pillaging in a single turn... a town that took 200 turns to reach that point instead of 100 turns. The difference is always about recovery time.

My point is that once a unit is built, the "value" of it is the same in any game speed. Only now the recovery time is costing you an extra 40 turns.

 

[Gamestation]

Why does it matter if your town gets downgraded to a village when the enemy steps onto a town? Unless the enemy was attacking with all recon units that town is probably gone anyway! At least this way the town does not instantly get demolished by a group of four horsemen (not necessarily THE Four of course) running through your territory.

 

[driekan]

Maybe making the Bannor have "Bannor forts" which grow like a cottage offering greater and greater defense bonus as well as bonus commerce would be better than trying to turn the cottages into semi-forts. That way a useless improvement (fort) becomes useful. Double take.
Of course, that would make the Bannor have no need for Education, but... Having an educated population, well-learned and capable of questioning is probably not what they want anyway, huh?

Maybe something like...
Bannor Rampart (+1 commerce, +10% Defense). After worked ->
Bannor Fort (+2 commerce, +25% defense). After worked ->
Bannor Citadel (+3 commerce, +40% defense). After worked ->
Bannor Bastion (+4 commerce, +55% defense). After worked ->
Bannor Fortress (+5 commer, +70% defense)

Or something like that. If you spammed the ramparts and worked them like most people do cottages nowadays, the enemy probably would be forced to attack units in fortifications, and this fortification would really have a big effect, which rarely happens as is. Should make it so bombarding a bannor fort improvement would reduce it to one level lower (Rather than removing the improvement, like happens with a normal fort). That way, taking any "cottage" becomes a mini-siege. Serves the purpose of slowing down the enemy just as much, doesnt it?

I think drafting already serves the function of the militia that has been proposed.

Edit: The bonuses to defense should probably work in reverse if there is an enemy standing in the tile with the improvement. That represents the population of the cottage-fort fighting along with the soldiers, and makes taking a Bannor cottage even tougher - if you take it, you better raze it completely fast, or else reinforcements are going to come and take you out.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

While I still prefer bCalchets's idea of letting villages and towns build civilian units normally, and soldiers while in crusade, I think the problem could be solved by making Bannor units appear to defend their homeland whenever the enemy pillages the cottage improvements, not when thy enter them.

 

[onedreamer]

Why does it matter if your town gets downgraded to a village when the enemy steps onto a town? Unless the enemy was attacking with all recon units that town is probably gone anyway! .

This is absolutely not written anywhere. While the code to make the demagog spawn is written...

While I still prefer bCalchets's idea of letting villages and towns build civilian units normally, and soldiers while in crusade, I think the problem could be solved by making Bannor units appear to defend their homeland whenever the enemy pillages the cottage improvements, not when thy enter them.

Finally something that makes sense to me ! Cheers

 

[felwar]

While I still prefer bCalchets's idea of letting villages and towns build civilian units normally, and soldiers while in crusade, I think the problem could be solved by making Bannor units appear to defend their homeland whenever the enemy pillages the cottage improvements, not when thy enter them.

Yeah this makes sense to me. I always liked this mechanic in Age of Wonders, when you'd get the equivalent of angry farmers chasing you for burning down their farm, or an earth elemental wanting revenge on you for destroying an earth node.