Barbarians, Savages, and Civilizations

Mithadan

Wandering Woodsman
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The discussion of barbarian civs in the pinned "Feature Requests" thread got me thinking a lot about ways to redirect the game away from an exclusive focus on the expansion of urban states, but I'm not sure where those thoughts will lead. It might not be something doable within the framework of C7, because it certainly would not emulate C3C as a baseline. It would be awesome if it could be something modders could add to the game if they wanted, but I imagine that coding the program to allow for that might be a tonne more work than anyone might be willing to put in.

Anyway, I'm just gonna brainstorm and spitball here, to see if anything comes from it. I also wonder if discussions are less to the point of the "Feature Requests" thread, and might be better pursued in separate threads? This one for sure, because -- Warning: it's VERY LONG! :lol:
 
For reference's sake, here's most of the relevant posts from the "Feature Requests" thread:

Spoiler :
New general features:

- Barbarians and Pirates can hold cities and are working like in Civ 2

Lower priority:

- more than 31 civs

Spoiler :
And, also, I was thinking about new factions springing up later.

What if a full AI-run civ sprang up in the year 1000 BC after a long time of nobody conquering an area? They'd proceed as normal from then onwards, of course with some extra techs to make up for the initial civs' head start.
What if Barbarians, which in some extreme-modded versions of civ3 can actually conquer and run cities, could now actually further develop their camps into cities? Instead of having a really bothersome but ultimately powerless barbarian camp springing an endless stack of horsemen that can really be destroyed easily by 2 spearmen and a couple of archers, you could have them actually become sedentary and found a city-state with the name of their tribe. Maybe they couldn't produce settlers for a time or something, but they could be like the ‘Horde’ units in IIRC Rome: Total War's Barbarian Invasion that just transformed population into combat units and vice-versa.

Spoiler :
Civ4 and Civ6 explore the barbarian development idea somewhat. In Civ4, of course, they will eventually found and perhaps capture cities. In Civ4 games with very isolated landmasses, I've seen what amounts to a barbarian civilization develop there, and their technology evolves as well. On rare occurrences they'll even conquer a civilization (which has never been my civilization :mischief:). In Civ6, with the Barbarian Clans feature introduced in 2021, barbarians can develop into city states, with interactions with settled civilizations influencing the rate at which they progress towards that goal. Even without that feature, the Civ6 barbarians produce better units over time; one of the few things I like more about Civ6 than Civ3 is that you actually have to think about the barbarians in the expansion phase, and consistently throughout that phase. One unit to escort a Settler is not necessarily going to cut it, and I saw a barbarian Settler that they had presumably swiped from an AI civilization.

I'd definitely like to have options in C7 for barbarians to be more consequential than they are in Civ3, and there's a non-negligible chance that at some point I'll play around with some combination of these ideas (and a few of my own) to provide a barbarian mod for the game.

Some Civ4 mods have interesting ideas, too. Rhye's and Fall of Civilization (RFC) is the best-known mod to have civs that spawn later in the game. I want to say there was a mod that had your civilization start out as generic and acquire traits, as well, but I can't remember which one. Maybe it never got to the finished product stage? But you could definitely create custom civ traits in Civ4; it's the best Civ for customization if you have the skill set to take advantage of what it offers (notably Python scripting and, if you really want to get deep, C++ development. Which of course, are not skills the average modder has).

Spoiler :
Civ 2 and Civ 2 ToT cities can hold their own Barbarian cities, too - even with its own buildings and options of production. This is a great feature especially for scenarios.

Spoiler :
Basically, in civ3, as things stand, barbarians' effects are only through negatives. They serve only to block things. You miiight just trick them into attacking an AI, say, by carefully landing a settler just outside their range and making it board a galley when they get near, but that's about it. Otherwise, they just block things. They block your settlement, they block colonies and roads, they block exploration, and, well, their 25 gold might just be useful, except that it's 25 gold after spending 10-15 turns with half a dozen units bogged down chipping into their numbers one by one, which boils down to at most 3 gpt and that's before you count the costs of equipping, sending and maintaining the pacifying expedition. They are just… a cost.

They might attack settlers and workers if they are near enough, but they always have a defence stat of 1, so really at some point they are a random meat shield that just happens to take a long time to wear down because there might be 30 or so of them in one tile.

If they could get active and at least upgrade their units (or just build newer ones, because a barrackless upgrade might be too much for the engine), or occupy colonies and cities and capture workers and settlers instead of destroying them, it would already work better.

Spoiler :
Re: Barbarians, Yup. And unless you play the high difficulties, they don't even block things very effectively, due to the high combat bonus against them at lower and moderate difficulties. This is an area where I envision having a "classic" mode/mod where it works like Civ3, and a "C7" mode where the barbarians are a little more... interesting? Not pushovers? I've also thought about how it's sort of odd how all the barbarians are allied with each other, they never fight among each other. Tell that to all the barbarians, as the Romans considered them, who saw the invasion of the Huns as a threat to them, and with good reason. I've thought about some ideas about maybe having some barbarian tribes occasionally fight other ones... or having them decide to form a federation to try to take a civilized city. In large part, trying to make the early expansion game more interesting than "one Spearman escort is enough to deal with the barbarians." We'll see where we get to, there's a lot to implement, but making a more interesting barbarian AI, with even slightly more developed mechanics, is an area that I think could make the early game more interesting.

Spoiler :
Re: barbarians.

I think that it could be a useful shift in viewpoint if we changed from calling them ‘barbarians’* to calling them ‘nomads’. Maybe they could exploit the territory in their own way, e.g. first you get a small crappy settlement that just produces low-level units like Civ3's warriors and horsemen and galleys. Then it could ‘expand’ (we already know that the barbarian settlements change, because at first they only produce warriors and only alter do they produce horsemen and galleys), perhaps giving its occupiers e.g. a defensive bonus or a +1 to healing, and maybe after that becoming a city-state.
If units can cost regular civs popheads then barbarian/nomad units could cost their camps some population: tl;dr they'd be produced in some sort of proportion to the nearby tiles not occupied by sedentary civs.
Historically there were great territories effectively exploited by nomadic peoples who developed strong cultural traditions, had powerful armies that were up to the standards of the day, and also engaged in trade with their neighbours and industry. Livestock-raising peoples across Eurasia, Africa and the Americas built great confederations and empires throughout history. And don't forget that most of the population of the world was rural until things began to change in these past couple of centuries.
In-game, this way the nomads are somewhat competitive. You'd better settle that fertile plainsland, lest a few nomads settle and start deploying armies against you -or, worse, settle as a city of its own outright, giving rise to a new civ!

Fighting between nomads is also a given. Perhaps there could be more than one settlement of one same tribe and they wouldn't fight one another.

Those who've played Total War games might remember why I'm making these two following suggestions, but:
-Continued city unrest could lead to cities ‘flipping’ to nearby enemy civs, but also to their drawing in nomads to take them over, or to simply split apart and reject your rule to start their own government!.
-Culture could help ‘pacify’ the nearest nomads. Your cultural superiority from libraries and temples and wonders could make them better predisposed towards you.
-Perhaps one could buy off the barbarians. See:

In civ3 they

already loot your cities for first shields and then money
they can be captured with the enslave function (btw, where there is VP scoring, do they count towards VP if you kill them, like civs' units? I'm almost certain that they do - I need to replay the Classical Maya scenario)
goody huts can give you units that join your side, so they are interacting with you in a quasi-commercial way

So you could buy them into your side, if you can afford it.

Before I forget, a bit of a tweak could be used for ‘wild animals' lair’, too.

Of course, the next obvious thought is pirate havens on water tiles! I often see randomly-generated maps where there are islands that only feature mountain tiles. Those are pretty much useless except, possibly, as artillery bases. Since the game engine doesn't place barbarians unless you cause.

What if a goodie hut near water, instead of spawning some easily defeatable warriors, spawned some rather more insufferable galleys?
I myself would give the barbarians longships or other fighting craft. In my (in-house) mod the dromon is a separate war galley; already I've experienced the displeasure and chagrin of downgrading from Dromon to caravel, losing sea supremacy as the Byzantines.

Of course, all the above is not so much stuff that would need to be in the regular, vanilla Civ3-replica game, but stuff that could be in a more ‘advanced’ version and, quite simply, the stuff that I feel should be available under the game engine for modders to do with as they please.

*just see the names, some of them are Avars, Bantu, Goths, Hurrians and what-not, which, while several of the ‘civilised’ civs -even their specific in-game leaders- were or are downright barbarically genocidal.

Spoiler :
I haven't caught up yet on the barbarian discussion yet, but "how do you make nomads interesting in a game about settled societies" is perhaps the most fundamental challenge of the Civ franchise. As I recall, until roughly 1600AD, settled societies were the exception, rather than the norm! It would be amazing to figure out how to make nomads, both forager and pastoralist, playable and fun, even though they don't have cities. Nomad confederacies (like the Mongols, obviously, but many others as well) were hugely impactful on sedentary states, but that kind of mobility, fluidity, and dispersion makes it really hard (at least for me) to conceptualize within the standard Civ framework. I imagine it might be an entirely different game -- one I would very much want to play -- I just don't know how to imagine it would work! :)

Point taken! That was my mistake, I should have said "states," not societies. "Urban societies" is spot on, and I think that's what Civ typically models a "civilization" on -- which makes sense etymologically, of course. Anyway, I need to catch up on the discussions here about barbarians etc., but this is super fascinating for me, given my reading material at the moment. It would be super cool to see C7 implement some mechanics that considerably expand the role of non-state and non-sedentary societies in the game. *glee*

Spoiler :
I have always been astonished - from college ( :old: ) through today - how many of "us" forget that the introduction of spoke-wheeled chariots into the Indo-European world came from the Eurasian steppes ca. 2000 BCE, via the Scythians.

I once "toyed" with a 1 city only Eurasian Steppe "Barbarian" city, which only allowed foot soldiers to be built, and with Chariots being auto-produced. I never got nearly as far with it as to even begin to fine-tune it (although some might recall that I requested - and I am embarrassed to have forgotten who made it for me - a, "Pyramid Of Skulls" Improvement for the Mongol "Civ," with the, "Forced Resettlement" Flag checked :devil:

Spoiler :
Back when I was still playing CivDOS (which I played almost exclusively on the supplied Earth-Map), one of the things I really liked (with hindsight!) was that the Barbarians would keep up in tech.

Due to the larger landmasses on the Earthmap, combined with the hardcoded limit of 128 towns, there would likely still be large tracts of unsettled land (e.g. in the hinterlands of northern Russia) in the late game, where I'd get Barbarian Rifles and possibly even MechInfs spawning.

So I would love it if Civ3 Barbs could also evolve, with the units sent out from camps being e.g. the most recent "resourceless" unit (Warriors, then Archer —> TOW line in the epic-game) common to the 2 Civs with the nearest capitals to that camp.
 
Okay, so where I'm getting most of my ideas on this topic are from James C. Scott's Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States (Yale, 2017), which I just finished reading. I'm supplementing it was a few points about foragers (hunter-gatherers) from John Gowdy's Ultrasocial: The Evolution of Human Nature and the Quest for a Sustainable Future (Cambridge, 2021). Both of these books are (in Scott's words) "trespasser's reconnaissance reports," essentially two scholars (one in political science, the other in evolutionary economics) attempting to "'connect the dots' of existing knowledge" in archaeology, (paleo)anthropology, and history "in ways that may be illuminating or suggestive." As I understand it, their work assembles what appears to be the cutting edge of research in these fields. This is nice, because unless you're an area specialist (I'm not!), it's not easy to come up with a general summation of the state of the field(s). Here's some of the basic data points that I think might be relevant to the early game:

Civilizational Narratives Hinder Our Understanding of "Barbarians" & "Savages"

Spoiler :
"The narrative of [the process of state formation] has typically been told as one of progress, of civilization and public order, and of increasing health and leisure. Given what we now know, much of this narrative is wrong or seriously misleading." (Scott, pp. 1-2)

"Tempted by the written record we have...internalized the viewpoint of the lowland inhabitants." (Nissen and Heine, p. 80; quoted in Scott, p. 179)

"Historical humankind has been mesmerized by the narrative of progress and civilization as codified by the first great agrarian kingdoms. As new and powerful societies, they were determined to distinguish themselves as sharply as possible from the populations from which they sprang and that still beckoned and threatened at their fringes. In its essentials, it was an 'ascent of man' story. Agriculture, it held, replaced the savage, wild, primitive, lawless, and violent world of hunter-gatherers and nomads. Fixed-field crops, on the other hand, were the origin and guarantor of the settled life, of formal religion, of society, and of government by laws. Those who refused to take up agriculture did so out of ignorance or a refusal to adapt. In virtually all early agricultural settings the superiority of farming was underwritten by an elaborate mythology recounting how a powerful god or goddess entrusted the sacred grain to a chosen people." (Scott, p. 7)

The "assumption is that sedentary life itself is superior to and more attractive than mobile forms of subsistence." (Scott, 8) "Dislodging this narrative from the world's imagination is well nigh impossible; the twelve-step recovery program required to accomplish that beggars the imagination. I shall nevertheless make a small start here." (Scott, 9)

"Hunters and gatherers have, in fact, never looked so good -- in terms of their diet, their health, and their leisure." (Scott, 10)

"The dominant view of hunter-gatherers before the 1960s was embedded in Western notions of inevitable progress through human ingenuity and technological advances. ... The Hobbesian view of hunter-gatherers was overturned as anthropologists began to publish reports on the tate of actual hunter-gatherer societies. ... Recent evidence confirms [these] basic insights.... Hunter-gatherer societies were egalitarian, generally peacable, and until the twentieth century at least, they were generally healthier than agriculturalists. The myth of linear steady progress clouds our understanding of human biological and cultural evolution and distorts our understanding of our hunter-gatherer heritage." (Gowdy, 41-43)


Subsistence Strategies in Addition to Sedentary Agriculture

Spoiler :
"Sedentism is actually quite common in ecologically rich and varied, preagricultural settings -- especially wetlands bordering the seasonal migration routes of fish, birds, and larger game. ... The opposite anomaly is also encountered: crop planting associated with mobility and dispersal except for a brief harvest period." (Scott, 10)

"Domesticated crops did not suddenly result in very large-scale oppressive state societies. In the Near East it took thousands of years for these to develop. After the initial establishment of agriculture there was a period of several thousand years of small, settled communities -- 'stateless' societies that practiced a combination of agriculture and foraging." (Gowdy, 93)

"Species populations rise and fall with external changes in the flow of food from the natural world. Individuals can catch or gather more or less food, but they cannot augment the flow. With the adoption of agriculture the food supply became endogenous, that is, under the control of the species engaging in it. ... Agriculture allows a species to create its own food supply." (Gowdy, 6)

"[T]he very first states to appear in the alluvial and wind-blown silt in southern Mesopotamia, Egypt, and the Yellow river were minuscule affairs both demographically and geographically. They were a mere smudge on the map of the ancient world and not much more than a rounding error in a total global population surrounded by a vast landscape inhabited by nonstate peoples -- aka 'barbarians.' Sumer, Akkad, Egypt, Mycenae, Olmec/Maya, Harrapan, Qin China notwithstanding, most of the world's population continued to live outside the immediate grasp of states and their taxes for a very long time. ... On a generous reading, until the past four hundred years, one-third of the globe was still occupied by hunter-gatherers, shifting cultivators, pastoralists, and independent horticulturalists, while states, being essentially agrarian, were confined largely to that small portion of the globe suitable for [grain] cultivation." (Scott, 14)

"Looked at from outer space in 2,500 BCE, the very earliest states in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and the Indus Valley would have been scarcely visible. In, say, 1,500 BCE there would have been a few more centers (Maya and the Yellow River), but their overall geographical presence may actually have shrunk. Even at the height of the Roman early Han 'superstates,' the area of their effective control would have been stunningly modest. With respect to population, the vast majority throughout this period (and arguably up until 1600 CE) were still nonstate peoples: hunters and gatherers, marine collectors, horticulturalists, swiddeners, pastoralists, and a good many farmers not effectively governed or taxed by any state." (Scott, 219-220)

"In spite of this [agrarian genocide against foragers], as late as the year 1500, one-third of the habitable part of the planet was occupied exclusively by hunter-gatherers." (Gowdy, 42)

"Though hardly precise Linnaean catergories, 'barbarians' often denoted a hostile pastoral people who posed a military threat to the states but who might, under certain circumstances, be incorporated; 'savages,' on the other hand, were seen as foraging and hunting bands not suitable as raw material, who might be ignored, killed, or enslaved." (Scott, 220-221)

"Barbarians are a people adjacent to a state but not in it." (Scott, 227)


State Formation

Spoiler :
"Before we could be made the object of state making, it was necessary that we gather -- or be gathered -- in substntial numbers with a reasonable expectation of not immediately starving." (Scott, 17) "The domestication of plants and animals was, as I have noted, not strictly necessary to sedentism, but it did create the conditions for an unprecedented level of concentration of food and population, especially in the most favorable agro-ecological settings: rich flood plain or loess soils and perennial water." (Scott, 18)

"Sedentism arose in very special and circumscribed ecological niches, particularly in alluvial or loess soils. Later -- much later -- the first centralised states arose in even more circumscribed ecological settings wehre there was a large corse of rich, well-watered soils and navigable waterways, capable of sustaining a good number of cereal-growing subjects. Outside these rare and favourable sites for state creation, foraging, hunting, and pastoral people continued to flourish." (Scott, 188-189)

"Even after climate stability permitted it, the social institutions necessary for large-scale agriculture took thousands of years to develop." (Gowdy, 65)

"History record no cassava states, no sago, yam, taro, plantain, breadfruit, or sweet potato states. ... My guess is that only grains are best suited to concentrated production, tax assessment, appropriation, cadastral surveys, storage, and rationing. On suitable soil wheat provides the agro-ecology for dense concentrations of human subjects." (Scott, 21)

"Eventually the point was reached where the human population in the Levant could not survive without the grains, and the grains could not survive without human intervention." (Gowdy, 69)

"State formation becomes possible only when there are few alternatives to a diet dominated by domesticated grains. So long as subsistence is spread across several food webs, as it is for hunter-gatherers, swidden cultivators, marine foragers, and so on, a state is unlikely to arise, inasmuch as there is no readily assessable and accessible staple to serve as a basis for appropriation." (Scott, 22)

"The shortage of irrigation water confined the population increasingly to well-watered places and eliminated or diminished many of teh alternative forms of subsistence, such as foraging and hunting." (Scott, 121)

"[P]opulation concentration must be distinguished from state making; wetlands abundance...could lead to incipient urbanism and commerce, but did not lead to state formation without grain growing on a large scale." (Scott, 129)

"One might be tempted to say that states arise, when they do, in ecologically rich areas. This would be a misunderstanding. What is required is wealth in the form of an appropriable, measurable, dominant grain crop and a population growing it that can be easily administered and mobilized." (Scott, 24)

"[O]ne critical feature separates [civilized] humans from [ultra]social insects -- human [state] societies are dominated by an elite few supported by ideological, legal, and religious institutions that allow them to expropriate the bulk of the produced surpluses for themselves. Throughout recorded history the expropriation of surplus by the elite has been orchestrated by the power of the state." (Gowdy, 89)

"[N]onalluvium ecologies are unlikely to be sites of early states. Arid deserts and mountainous zones (barring fertile intermontane basins) virtually require dispersed subsistence strategies and can hardly serve as the nucleus of a state. These 'nonstate spaces,' owing to their different subsistence patterns and social organization -- pastoralism, foraging, and slash-and-burn cultivation -- are often stigmatized and coded 'barbarian' by state discourses." (Scott, 127)

"Where grain, and therefore agrarian taxes, stopped, there too did the state's power begin to degrade. The power of the early Chinese states was confined to the arable drainage basis of the Yellow and Yangzi Rivers. ... The territory of the Roman Empire, for all its imperial ambitions, did not extend much beyond the grain line. ... These grain states were restricted to a narrow ecological niche that favoured intensive agriculture." (Scott, 134-135)

"Looked at from the perspective of a state tax collector, [hunting and gathering, maritime fishing and collecting, horticulture, shifting cultivation, and specialized pastoralism] were fiscally sterile; they could not repay the cost of controlling them. ... Specialized pastoralism, seen as an outgrowth of agriculture, confronts the the would-be tax collector with...a problem of dispersal and mobility. The Ottoman Empire, founded by pastoralists, found it exceptionally difficult to tax herders." (Scott, 135-136)

"The barbarian zone, as it were, is essentially the mirror image of the agro-ecology of the state. It is a zone of hunting, slash-and-burn cultivation, shellfish collection, foraging, pastoralism, roots and tubers, and few if any standing grain crops. It is a zone of physical mobility, mixed and shifting subsistence strategies: in a word, 'illegible' [hard to tax] production. ... The line on the frontier where the barbarians begin is that line where taxes and grain end." (Scott, 33)

"In one way or another, nongrain peoples -- that is to say, most of the world -- embodied forms of livelihood and social organization that defeated taxation: physical mobility, dispersal, variable group and community size, diverse and invisible subsistence goods, and few fixed-point resources." (Scott, 136)


The Vulnerability of States vis-a-vis Nonstate Societies

Spoiler :
"One of the hallmarks of early statecraft in agrarian kingdoms was to hold the population in place and prevent any unauthorized movement. Physical mobility and dispersal are the bane of the tax man." (Scott, 146) "So long as there are other subsistence options, ...'it is impossible to prevent the members of the lower class from finding other means of subsistence unless they are made personally unfree. When populatin becomes so dense that land can be controlled it becomes unnecessary to keep the lower classes in bondage; it is sufficient to deprive the working class of the right to be independent cultivators' -- foragers, hunter-gatherers, swiddeners, pastoralists." (Scott, 153, quoting Ester Boserup)

"A sure sign of the manpower obsession of the early states, whether in the Fertile Crescent, Greece, or Southeast Asia, is how rarely their chronicles boast of having taken territory." (Scott, 171) "States, we know, did not invent slavery and human bondage; they could be found in innumerable prestate societies. What states surely did invent, however, are large-scale societies based systematically on coerced, captive human labor." (Scott, 180)

"[T]here are...forms of communal bondage that were widely practiced in many early states.... The first of these might be called mass deportation coupled with communal forced settlement. Our best descriptions of the practice come from the neo-Assyrian Empire, where it was employed on a massive scale. ... In some cases, it seems that the captives were resettled on land abandoned earlier by other subjects, implying that forced mass resettlement may have been part of an effort to compensate for mass exoduses or epidemics. Many of the captives were referred to as 'saknutu,' which means 'a captive made to settle the soil.'" (Scott, 176-178).

"As a political structure assembled atop a settled farming community, the state shared the general vulnerabilities of sedentary grain communities in general." (Scott, 184)

"Agricultural technology was simple, transportation was slow, and the amount of food that could be stored was limited. All agriculture was essentially local and crop failures in one area could not be offset by surpluses in other areas. Intensive cultivation of the same crops reduced soil fertility as did deforestation and irrigation. These problems were made worse by the confiscatory power of religious and political elites who expropriated food from the peasants. Marauding armies moved through the countryside looting, destroying crops, and killing farm animals. States were generally short-lived because they added another level of complexity and vulnerability to an already vulnerable system." (Gowdy, 104)

"In most cases, interregna, fragmentation, and 'dark ages' were more common than consolidated, effective rule. ... In a good part of the world, the state, even when it was robust, was a seasonal institution." (Scott, 15)

"[F]light from the early state domains to the periphery was quite common, but, as it contradicts the narrative of the state as a civilizing benefactor of its subjects, it is relegated to obscure legal codes." (Scott, 16)

"Agriculture did not become dominant by outcompeting hunting and gathering in the sense of offering them a better life. Agriculturalists won out by out-breeding hunter-gatherers and by systematically exterminating them." (Gowdy, 42)

"[T]he abandonment of the monumental court center...do[es] not necessarily mean a decline in regional population. [It does] not necessarily mean a decline in human health, well-being, or nutrition, and...may represent an improvement. Finally, a 'collapse' at the center is less likely to mean a dissolution of a culture than its reformulatin and decentralisation." (Scott, 185-186)

"[M]uch that passes as collapse [is] rather a dissassembly of larger but more fragile political units into their smaller and often more stable components....the units of a larger aggregation are generally independent and detachable...." (Scott, 187)

"There are periods -- protracted ones -- in which large aggregations of population disappeared and in which sedentism itself was reduced to a mere shadow of its former self. ... [R]uralization rather than urbanization dominated Mesopotamia for more than a thousand years after the fall of Ur III, apparently owing to pastoralist incursions." (Scott, 188)

"It is not uncommon for the subjects of early states to leave both agriculture and urban centers to evade taxes, conscription, epidemics, and oppression. ... The abandonment of the state may, in such cases, be experienced as an emancipation. ...we have no warrant for assuming that the abandonment of an urban centre is, ipso facto, a descent into brutality and violence." (Scott, 211)

"Over time an increasingly large proportion of nonstate peoples were not 'pristine primitives' who stubbornly refused the domus, but ex-state subjects who had chosen, albeit often in desperate circumstances, to keep the state at arm's length. ... The longer states existed, the more refugees they disgorged to the periphery. ... The process of secondary primitivism, or what might be called 'going over to the barbarians,' is far more common than any of the standard civilizational narratives allow for." (Scott, 232)


The Civilized-Barbarian Dialectic

Spoiler :
"In one form or another the term [barbarian] was reinvented by all early states to distinguish themselves from those outside the state. ... I will continue to use the term 'barbarian' with tongue planted firmly in cheek -- in part because I want to argue that the era of the earliest and fragile states was a time when it was good to be a barbarian. The length of this period varied from place to place depending on state strength and military technology; while it lasted it might be called the golden age of the barbarians." (Scott, 32-33)

"For the Romans and the Tang Dynasty, tribes were territorial units of administsration, having little or nothing to do with the characteristics of the people so designated. ... A 'people' originally conjured out of whole cloth by administrative fiat might come to adopt that fiction as a conscious, even defiant, identity. In Caesar's evolutionary scheme, ...tribes preceded states. Given what we now know, it would be more accurate to say that states preceded tribes and, in fact, largely invented them as an instrument of rule." (Scott, 236)

"...the connection between nomads and sedentaries was a two-way street, with individuals and groups moving back and forth along this continuum as a response to environmental and social pressure." (Adams, 334; quoted in Scott, 212)

"Most of the world's population in the epoch of the early states comprised nonstate hunters and gatherers. William McNeill conjectures that they would have been demographically devestated when they came into contact with the novel diseases generated by concentrations in the grain core -- diseases that for urban populations were becoming more endemic and hence less lethal. If so, much of this nonstate population may have perished well outside of any documentation and notice...as was the case for the epidemiological devestation of New World populations as they succumbed to diseases that raced inland often well ahead of any European eyes." (Scott, 217)

"States, being largely agrarian phenomena, would, with the exception of some intermontane valleys, have looked like small alluvial achipelagoes, located on the floodplains of a handful of major rivers. ... Outside this ecological 'sweet spot,' in arid lands, in swamps and marshes, in the mountains, they could not rule. They might mount punitive expeditions and win an engagement or two, but rule was another thing. ... For the most part, states did not seek to rule fiscally sterile areas beyond the core that would not normally repay the cost of governing them. Instead, states sought military allies and proxies in the hinterlands and traded to obtain the scarce raw materials they needed." (Scott, 220)

"[T]he threat posed by barbarians was perhaps the single most important factor limiting the growth of states for a period measured more in millennia than in centuries." (Scott, 222)

"[T]This concentration of settled people...serve[d] as a site of extraction for more mobile predators. When the predator's mobility was enhanced by camels, horses, stirrups, or swift boats of shallow draft, the range and effectiveness of their raids was greatly extended. The returns of barbarian life would have been far less attractive in the absence of these concentrated [so-called] foraging sites." (Scott, 223)

"Under premodern conditions and perhaps even until the era of cannons, mobile armies of pastoralists have generally been superior to the aristocratic and peasant armies of states. Even in regions without pastoralists and horses, the general pattern seems to be that more mobile peoples -- hunter-gatherers, swiddeners, and boat people -- tend to dominate and extract tribute from sedentary horticulturalists and farmers." (Scott, 237)

"Barbarian raiders were, for the most part, relatively safe from retaliation by the state. ... State armies might be effective against fixed objectives and sedentary communities but were largely helpless campaigning against acephalous bands with no central authority with whom to negotiate or defeat in battle." (Scott, 238)

"[P]lunder and trade...were very effectively combined in ways that mimicked certain forms of statecraft." (Scott, 227)

"[R]aiding...is a radically unstable mode of subsistence.... Knowing this, raiders are most likely to adjust their strategy to something that looks more like a 'protection racket.' ... In extracting a sustainable surplus from sedentary communities and fending off external attacks to protect its base, a stable protection racket like this is hard to distinguish from the archaic state itself." (Scott, 241)

"Barbarian-state relations can be seen as a contest between two parties for the right to apprpriate the surplus from the sedentary grain-and-manpower module." (Scott, 242)

"Hunters and gatherers or swiddeners might nibble at the state, but politidcally mobilized large confederations of mounted pastoralists were designed to extract wealth from sedentary states; they were a 'state in waiting' or, as Barfield puts it, a 'shadow empire.'" (Scott, 249).

"While raiding's spectacular quality tends to dominate accounts of the early state's relationships with barbarians, it was surely far less important than trade. The early states, located for the most part in rich, alluvial bottomlands, were natural trading partners with nearby barbarians. Ranging widely in a far more diverse environment, only the barbarians could supply the necessities without which the early state could not long survive: metal ores, timber, hides, obsidian, honey, medicinals, and aromatics. The lowland kingdom was more valuable as a trade depot, in the long run, than as a site of plunder." (Scott, 34)

"Raiding by nomadic groups...is best understood as a means of acquiring tributary communities and of dominating the trade that circulated through them. It was not a result of nomadic poverty, still less a desire for shiny objects." (Scott, 248)

"[E]xchange and trade flowed vigorously between [state and nonstate peoples]. The exchange, however, was uncoerced and depended on bartering and trading desirable goods from one ecological zone to another to mutual advantage." (Scott, 136)

"The greatest boon that the appearance of states provided to barbarians...was...trading posts. Because states represented such narrow agro-ecologies, they relied on a host of products from outside the alluvium to survive. State and nonstate peoples were natural trading partners. As a state grew in population and wealth, so too did its commercial exchange with nearby barbarians. In the first millennium BCE there was a veritable explosion in seaborne commerce in the Mediterranean that exponentially increased the volume and value of trade. The greater part of the 'barbarian economy' in this context was devoted to supplying lowland markets with raw materials and goods they required.... A good part of what barbarians supplied was livestock in the most expansive sense of the term: cattle, sheep, and above all slaves. In return they received textiles, grain, iron- and copperware, pottery, and artisan luxury items.... Barbarian groups that controlled one or more of the major trading routes (usually a navigable river) to a major lowland center could reap large rewards and become, in turn conspicous sites of luxury, talent, and, if you will, 'civiliziation.'" (Scott, 226)

"Both foraging and hunting became, with the expansion of trade, more a trading and entrepreneurial venture than a pure subsistence activity." (Scott, 34-35)

"[T]he various peripheries of the agrarian states became valuable commercial landscapes -- in some ways more valuable than the alluvium itself -- thoroughly enmeshed in Mediterranean-wide trade networkds. The possibilities for hunters, foragers, and marine collectors had never been more promising." (Scott, 247)

"[N]omadic pastoralists require sedentary communities as depots of manpower and revenue as well as trading outlets. Nomadic pastoralists have been known to forcibly resettle agricultural populations to great such depots." (Scott, 251)

Some "nomadic barbarians...conquer[ed] the state or empire and became a new ruling class. ... The second alternative is far more common but less remarked upon, and that is for the nomads to become the cavalry/mercenaries of the state, patrolling the marches and keeping the other barbarians in check. ... In this case, rather than conquering the state, the barbarisns become part of the military arm of an existing state." (Scott, 250-251)

"[T]he political enclosure movement represented by the modern nation-state did not yet exist. Physical movement, flux, an open froneier, and mixed subsistence strategies were the hallmark of this entire period. Even the exceptional and often short-lived empires of this long epoch could not impede large-scale population movements in and out of their political orbit." (Scott, 253)

"As states and durable gunpowder empires grew, the ability of nonstate peoples to raid and dominate small states shrank at a pace that depended greatly on the region and its geography." (Scott, 254)

"Selling both their fellow barbarians and their martial service to the early states, the barbarians contributed mightily to the decline of their brief golden age." (Scott, 35)

"Barbarian levies had as much to do with building states as with plunderng them. By systematically replenishing the state's manpower base by slaving and by protecting and expanding the state with its military services, the barbarians willingly dug their own grave." (Scott, 256)
 
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Points in summary:

  • Agrarian kingdoms (states, aka urban "civilizations") sprang from forager and/or nomadic populations (duh).
  • Civilizations were an extremely small cultural minority when they first arose roughly 8000 years ago, and only managed to control about 66% of the world's population by the start of the 17th century.
  • Either sedentism or mobility can apply to either foraging (food collection) or domesticated food production (farming/herding).
  • These two sets can roughly cash out as follows:
    • mobile foraging (hunting & gathering "savages," if you will)
    • sedentary foraging (Jomon Japan, Pacific Northwest North America, Natufians, etc.)
    • mobile food production ("barbarians" par excellence)
      • nomadic pastoralism/herding = animal domesticates dominate
      • swidden cultivation = plant domesticates dominate, presumably
    • sedentary food production
      • non-state horticulture & livestock rearing (ancient Germania?)
      • grain states ("civilization" as we're accustomed to defining it)
  • States can only form out of populations that are already sedentary, i.e. first sedentary foragers, then sedentary plant & animal husbandry.
  • States can only form where the soil and water is suitable for grain (wheat, barley, millet, rice, or maize) agriculture, because only grains are adequately taxable.
  • States can only form where the population is unable to rely on forms of subsistence other than grain agriculture, either through geography or coercion.
  • Slavery was economically necessary for the maintenance of state societies, for both labour and settlement.
  • Civilizations were fragile and frequently dissolved into smaller, dispersed, and more stable subsistence modules (like pastoralism or small farming villages, possibly also foraging bands).
  • Furthermore, due to poor standards of living and high levels of political oppression in states, the appeal was for civilized subjects to join barbarian societies rather than the inverse.
  • Barbarians were the main factor limiting the spread of early states.
  • Barbarians are parasitic on civilization, whereas "savages" largely are not.
  • Early states could only survive by trading with barbarians (either pastoralists or foragers).
  • Most trade between barbarians and states was noncoercive and mutually advantageous.
  • Trade with states eventually led to the downfall of barbarian societies (both pastoralists and foragers).
 
Possible gameplay features that reflect the above:

  • If the epic game starts no earlier than 6000BC, the entire map should be "occupied" with humans (except isolated islands, like Iceland, Madagascar, or New Zealand in an Earth map).
    • cf. Civinator's point about having more than 31 civs.
    • however, it would probably be utterly unworkable to have different "civs" for each small group of foragers covering the vast majority of the map's land surface.
  • I'd propose that these human groups would be represented by units (like settlers) that cannot build cities, but could exploit resources and possibly generate other units.
    • these units (I dunno, shall we call them "tribes" or "bands," perhaps?) would populate the map at a certain rate of density (i.e., such and such number of tiles between each one)
    • and they would exude a certain amount of "culture" (i.e., such and such numbers of tiles for hunting grounds or territory).
    • however, having each tribal unit function as an independent entity would probably crash the game (i.e., that's a lot more than 31 "civs").
  • Therefore, I propose that "subsistence strategy" be another layer added to the game that is analogous to "government." I.e., you could choose one or another subsistence strategy from a drop-down menu.
    • For epic gameplay, there could be four subsistence strategies to choose from (but for modding, you could just add more if you wanted to):
      • 1) nomadic foraging
      • 2) sedentary foraging
      • 3) barbarian nomadism
      • 4) agrarian sedentism
    • At the start of the epic game, every "civ" (playable or otherwise) would be set to "nomadic foraging," unless you want a few to already be situated in sites that are suitable for sedentary foraging.
      • All tribal units of a particular subsistence strategy would therefore function as a single "civ," at least in terms of "occupying territory" on the map.
      • The starting map would therefore show up to four different subsistence strategies across the globe
      • A starting player would simply assume control of one of these foraging units.
  • What subsistence strategy you'd choose would determine how you exploit available resources, including whether you're able to build a city.
    • sedentary subsistence (either foraging or agricultural) would allow the tribal unit to found a village (aka city, like we're used to) where the resources and water supply permit.
      • Perhaps (I think this is advisable, from a historical perspective) sedentary agricultural subsistence could only be chosen *after* a sedentary foraging site has been set up, and then only where resources and water supply permit.
    • Sedentary foraging would be permitted by coasts or marshes and high concentrations of fish or shellfish, or by floodplains and high concentrations of wild grains or other suitable resources (uh, breadfruit? migratory waterfowl? I have no idea). These resources would be static, like the ones currently in C3C...unless they could be overexploited? Damn, I don't know.
    • Nomadic foraging would allow for mobile resource exploitation. I'm imagining resources that get "harvested" after X turns, and then pop up again somewhere else within the ambit of the tribal unit, which then moves there and harvests it again. (This would be playable by a human, but pretty boring if it were to go on for several hundred turns.)
    • Barbarian nomadism would entail "harvesting" resources (animal or plant, I suppose) like goat or horse herds, or manioc or bananas in forests/jungles, which somehow move around the map, but also could be expanded by some mechanism by which these resources spread as the nomad groups grow somehow. (This could also be playable by a human, but it would likely be a fairly long wait before a barbarian confederacy could be formed.)
    • Agrarian sedentism would entail utilitizing the same static resources as sedentary foraging, but also allow the spread of them through cultivation (similarly to however the pastoralists spread their herds, above).
    • Civilizations (the ones we're used to playing) start when agrarian sedentism utilizes grain resources (wheat, rice, or maize) to create a state. Then you're off to the races!
  • So assuming that the human player is trying to get to the point of building an agrarian state, the early game would be the search for a suitable site where a civilization could be founded, and the conflicts along the way.
  • Each individual tribal unit, regardless of subsistence strategy, could engage in military conflict with any other.
    • For foragers, I assume this would just allow for movement into (relatively) new foraging environments by displacing or eliminating other forager units there.
    • This might not happen without pressure from outside the foraging subsistence strategy zones exerted by the expanding population or slaving wars of mobile or sedentary food producers.
  • While civilizations are being built, the rest of the map is full of nomadic foragers, nomadic pastoralists or swiddeners, and sedentary foragers who would interact with various civilized states.
    • raiding would occur in both directions, for the taking of slaves for the state, and the taking of agricultural wealth (or population?) for the barbarians.
    • States (civs in the strict sense) could enslave and conquer barbarian units, and perhaps use this population to found new cities along with the expansion of grain cultivation outside the original core.
    • trade would be the absolutely crucial form of interaction, however, as it would supply all kinds of strategic and luxury resources to sedentary states, and the impetus for barbarian confederacies to form.
    • I have no idea how to model the fragility of early civilizations
    • it would be fascinating if a civ could melt back into a decentralised patchwork of barbarian nomadism (either pastoralist or agriculturalist), or even decentralised agricultural sedentism.
    • this would leave the human player(s) in charge of a single tribal unit again, and the task of civilization building could begin again.
  • Barbarian confederacies could spawn (somehow) from certain pastoralist or swiddener "tribal units" bordering a civilization.
    • the formation of a barbarian confederacy might be linked somehow to outmigration of state manpower into barbarian areas, perhaps by insufficient "happiness" in the city?
    • the confederacy would break off from the larger "barbarian nomadic" subsistence territorial group on the map and have it's own "cultural" borders on the map (a la current C3C).
    • they wouldn't (necessarily) have cities. They'd at least have a number of mobile tribal units that follow the mobile resources and generate military units (imagine a settler that can build a horse archer every few turns).
    • they could, however conquer other cities on the map and occupy them, at which point they'd function as a normal city in C3C.
    • Barbarians could also enslave/absorb other tribal units into their confederacy, or through "capture" of worker/settler units from civilized states (or outmigration?).
  • Military units from barbarian confederacies could raid resources from other groups (civilized or otherwise) that would contribute to production, expansion, or happiness (or whatever).
  • Barbarian confederacy trading or raiding could also involve something analogous to Vanilla tech advancement, so that they could keep pace with, or even exceed in some cases, the military sophistication of sedentary states.
  • Barbarian confederacies could be bought off by sedentary states, so that they no longer raid the civ for a certain amount of turns.
  • Barbarian military units could be hired as mercenaries, which could lead eventually (not sure how) to the incorporation of the corresponding barbarian confederacy into the sedentary civilization.
 
Hmmm... some very interesting ideas, and you've done some recent reading on the subject. I've skipped "The Civilized-Barbarian Dialectic" due to time constraints, but read the rest.

There's a few main trains of thought going through my head.

One is, I know you said 1/3 of the world population up until the 17th century (although didn't your source say "generously" 1/3 of the world?). But a lot of the gameplay features you mention seem to fit best in the "Old Old World" as I've heard the period prior to the fall of Assyria called. 13th century France probably wasn't going to become nomadic. So at least for the back-and-forth from nomadic to civilized part, I wonder if it would work better in a period focused game?

Another is that I'm reminded in the Civ4 mod Caveman2Cosmos. It's kind of a kitchen sink mod, and tries to do too much, and the fact that it's trying to do too much becomes more obvious the later you play the game. But the first part of it is pretty interesting. You start out in 50,000 BC, in the Stone Age, and it does indeed attempt to model the hunter-gatherer society. Borders as we know them in Civ3 and Civ4 don't exist for tens of thousands of years; settlements grow extremely slowly but most of their growth is tied to successfully hunting migratory resources on the map (birds, antelopes, etc. - it varies based on what part of the world you spawn in. Might be some foraging too?). The Agriculture tech is a pivotal one in moving from the prehistoric world to the Old Old World. The lacking part is you can't move your main settlement, even pre-agriculture; perhaps it's an engine limitation in Civ4. Still, it's an interesting take on adding a pre-historic, pre-agriculture era on to the beginning of a Civ-like game. I've never made it to the "Cosmos" part of the mod, but the "Caveman" part is interesting.

I'm also thinking, how do you make it fun for the player that their settled state might fail and become nomadic? The traditional narrative of civilizations having forward progress fits well to player expectations that they will generally be improving their status over time. I'm having a hard time of thinking of games where players typically expect to "lose" or "become worse". Maybe something like Dwarf Fortress? "Losing is fun" being its motto. Maybe to remain settled, you need to be lucky with the weather, so you usually fail a few times, but each time you retain some agricultural knowledge that makes it more likely you'll "succeed" as a settled society the next time?

Finally, I'm reminded that I should try a game of Egypt: Old Kingdom, which I picked up on GOG in January. I believe it still focuses heavily on the titular settled society, but it's a very old one, and I know it has an agricultural focus. I'm curious if it gets into the intricacies of that; I do know from reading the developer's blog that they consulted with historians and Egyptologists to try to make their game more historically accurate. It's probably not exactly what you're thinking, but may have an interesting take. The developer is based in Russia, so if you want to pick it up you might want to do so SWIFT-ly, in case it becomes unavailable for sale in the near future.

As you alluded to, it might all be too much work... C7 in general might be too much work, there's still a long way to go. Still an interesting possible direction. Maybe the basis for the first C7 expansion pack? :D
 
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But a lot of the gameplay features you mention seem to fit best in the "Old Old World" as I've heard the period prior to the fall of Assyria called. 13th century France probably wasn't going to become nomadic. So at least for the back-and-forth from nomadic to civilized part, I wonder if it would work better in a period focused game?
Yes, good point! My sources (so far) really only focus on that exact period, up to the fall of Assyria. I don't know what the other forms of "barbarism and savagery" would have been around in the 13th century. Maybe not much in Europe, but I assume it'd be all over the Americas, Africa, and large swaths of Central and Southern Asia. I'm thinking the Mongol empire could, in large part for at least a part of its history, be comprised of those mobile tribal core units, although they obviously captured and held cities and concquered civilizations too.

I'm also thinking, how do you make it fun for the player that their settled state might fail and become nomadic? The traditional narrative of civilizations having forward progress fits well to player expectations that they will generally be improving their status over time. I'm having a hard time of thinking of games where players typically expect to "lose" or "become worse". Maybe something like Dwarf Fortress? "Losing is fun" being its motto. Maybe to remain settled, you need to be lucky with the weather, so you usually fail a few times, but each time you retain some agricultural knowledge that makes it more likely you'll "succeed" as a settled society the next time?
That's a good question, I guess maybe it would just be "oops, you lose"? But that sucks. Maybe it would be more of a dispersal and you start again, and to be honest, my sources don't really say how these ancient states got reconstituted again and again. But it would be cool if there was some vague continuity in terms of culture and/or geography. Like maybe your collapsed Sumerian states could reassemble as Babylonians or Assyrians and on and on. But that might suck too. I like your idea about needing to remain lucky with the weather, and somehow managing to hang on during a few collapses...

I guess one could just give up on the "collapsing of fragile states" in the game, and focus on making barbarians a more major territorial presence?

As you alluded to, it might all be too much work... C7 in general might be too much work, there's still a long way to go. Still an interesting possible direction. Maybe the basis for the first C7 expansion pack? :D
Ugh, no kidding! I can't imagine what it must be like to make C7. I'm thinking, now, that most of my ideas above might just be something to mod into the game if one felt so inclined, and in order to do that we'd basically need only a few features:
  1. Subsistency strategy as a selectable precondition for certain gameplay elements, sort of like how governments work.
  2. Mobile production centres (basically cities that move) -- so a nomadic tribal core that could generate units or multiply itself, depending on subsistence strategy and resource exploitation.
  3. Migratory and re-spawnable resources (for sustainable use by foragers)
  4. Expandable resources for food producers (so grain or horses can spread across the map as they're adopted and/or exploited by human populations)
I think with those four capabilities built into C7, modders could fiddle with them and see how best to make them work. Or turn them into entirely different things depending on the mod context.
 
I'm thinking about the "oops, you lose" part... it does suck. So I'm thinking about other games, and what they do when you lose to make it not be a throw-the-computer-out-the-window-and-start-over moment, while also not requiring save scumming. The game that comes to mind is an indie boxing game I played last summer, Punch Club. You will inevitably face stronger opponents and lose. You don't get the prize money for winning, you're beat up for a while. But you gain experience. And that experience can be translated into learning new techniques.

Something similar could work in this area. When you first get crop domestication, it's extremely dependent on being fortunate with the weather. Maybe you are for a few years but the chances of making it 20 years are very slim. When you fail, as you likely will, you can invest in some sort of upgrade. Basic irrigation? Weeding? A more resilient strain of grain that survived the drought? Maybe there are some other remnants of being a settled society for a few years that you can take with you as a nomadic one? Perhaps certain scientific elements can only be researched by settled societies? Writing, architecture?

I think it's definitely easier/more traditional/more likely to be in C7 to have barbarians be a larger presence in some way. But in terms of a game without a built-in expectation about what it's about (one of the core tenets in C7 is to have continuity with the spirit of Civ III), I still like the idea of seeing how the "fragile states" model could work. I'm thinking an Older World style focused game, where your goal is to eventually build a settled stable society (likely after a few tries), and perhaps build a few wonders, could be an interesting game, and Mohawk Games has shown those more era-focused game can find an audience with Old World.

-------

Have you played Jon Shafer's At the Gates? Jon was the designer of Civ V, and a community modder of Civ III, and the basic premise was you started as a nomadic barbarian tribe, and tried to eventually gain influence within Rome, similar to how Odoacer did in real life, or Attila nearly did. The game fell a bit flat in audience reception, but in terms of concept it's the closest one I can think of to what you describe. I've played it a couple times, but never got super far... there are too many options for what to do, and not enough indication of what makes sense as a priority. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason it flopped was the ideas exceeding the size of the team, and thus its ability to implement them; Jon didn't have Firaxis to help build that game. I'm sure part of it was that given his pedigree, the audience expected something kind of like Civ, and from screenshots it kind of looks like maybe it's like Civ, but in gameplay it's really not like Civ.

In other words it's not really a game I'd recommend in its own right to a general strategy/Civ-playing audience, but it likely is worth recommending for someone who wants to see a take of nomadism in a strategy game. It has cities that move; I'm not sure that its resources respawn but foragers can make use of (and exhaust; it's not necessarily sustainable) them. You can hunt horses for meat, but once you reach a certain level of development, you can also domesticate the ones you haven't eaten yet, and propagate domesticated horses (probably cattle, too, but I spawned near horses last time). You don't have farms at the beginning; you have to hunt and gather food or you will starve. Playing it can probably help with ideas about the potential design of a nomadic/falling-from-a-settled-state game, both in terms of what works well and what doesn't work so well.

C7 has only moved forward as far as it has because WildWeazel broke it down into sixteen parts. We're done with about 1.9 of those 16. There probably are some things we forgot that will push it closer to 20. Some things, like making a competent AI, are likely to become exponentially more difficult as more features are added. But in short, when the goal is "make a strategy game of the scope of Civ III", it is of course an overwhelming task... Sid started with Civ 1 for good reason, and only after making several other games. Making 1/16th of the game, with four or five sub-goals in that 1/16th, is a more bite-sized problem.
 
But you gain experience. And that experience can be translated into learning new techniques. Something similar could work in this area. When you first get crop domestication, it's extremely dependent on being fortunate with the weather. Maybe you are for a few years but the chances of making it 20 years are very slim. When you fail, as you likely will, you can invest in some sort of upgrade. Basic irrigation? Weeding? A more resilient strain of grain that survived the drought? Maybe there are some other remnants of being a settled society for a few years that you can take with you as a nomadic one? Perhaps certain scientific elements can only be researched by settled societies? Writing, architecture?
Heck yeah, some (many!) "civilization advances" should only be available to settled societies. Writing and architecture for sure! But maybe most of the vanilla tech tree, to be honest.

It would be really fun to see if something could be done to create a "fragile states" model. I've just finished introducing Civ6 to my nephews, and in our hotseat game, I encountered the Loyalty mechanic for the first time. Apparently if I don't have enough amenities in certain cities, they're liable to flip allegiance to some other state (or do they revert to barbarians? I don't know). Maybe there's a simple mechanic that could be figured out for that in C7, I don't know. In my reading this past week, I encountered the following which might be helpful in thinking how to make it work in-game:
  • Increasing scale leads to environmental degradation. The economic, political, and military advantages of larger-scale societies lead to agricultural intensification, over-irrigation and salinization, declines in soil fertility, eventual declines in agricultural output, and political/social instability.
  • Political and economic concentration leads to increasing social fragility. The pattern of early agricultural states seems to be long periods of relative autonomy punctuated by relatively short periods of unification and coercion. Thompson writes: "It is not only disintegration that needs to be explained but rather also the occasional, temporary, and essentially aberrational successes at integration or unification.
  • Complex societies are increasingly susceptible to exogenous environmental changes such as slight shifts in rainfall patterns, and/or periods of warming or cooling. (Gowdy, pp. 100-101)
I'm not sure how we'd introduce weather or climate patterns into C7, but that would be cool to do, if possible. For environmental degradation, there's the pollution mechanic in Civ3 that might be nice if it were moddable, and for social fragility there's the happiness mechanic in Civ3. Might be nice to be able to mod that too, because it doesn't sound like "happiness" is the issue so much as ability to coerce by (or susceptibility to coercion by) "ideological, legal, and religious institutions" that maintain the state form (Gowdy, 89). Being able to leverage those kinds of institutions, and to relocate the state core (post-collapse) to a new, less exploited ecosystem (where such exist), might be ways to reconstitute the civilization after one of those dispersals.

I haven't even heard of Jon Shafer's At the Gates, but I'm looking at the wikipedia entry right now! It might be fun to give that a spin for sure, although shoot, I probably have too many projects/hobbies on the go already! ;)
It has cities that move; I'm not sure that its resources respawn but foragers can make use of (and exhaust; it's not necessarily sustainable) them. You can hunt horses for meat, but once you reach a certain level of development, you can also domesticate the ones you haven't eaten yet, and propagate domesticated horses (probably cattle, too, but I spawned near horses last time). You don't have farms at the beginning; you have to hunt and gather food or you will starve. Playing it can probably help with ideas about the potential design of a nomadic/falling-from-a-settled-state game, both in terms of what works well and what doesn't work so well.
That sounds really cool. I think it would be a great mechanic to allow for the overexploitation of wild resources, maybe such that production in the mobile tribal core was dependent on exploitation. You could build more units, perhaps, but then you'd exhaust your otherwise renewable resource base, and would either die off or have to adopt another subsistence strategy that would support growth (i.e., food production). Dang, I really want to check out this game now!
 
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