Bartleby's HoF Thread

[Bartleby]

I got a bit bored of the India 100k Demigod starts, and while I plan to go back to them soon enough...

I never really got back into looking for a start, so I just picked up the very first attempt I had made, that I had played through to 10 AD (it was meant more as a test-game so it was a bit slapdash).

In 925 BC I had revolted to republic, this was a very slow start with only 12 towns a that stage (quite a lot of jungle and marsh, and a fairly large mountain range with two volcanoes (surely there'll be coal in that lot...)

When I had left off at 10 AD I had filled the space available to me and had 26 towns, this remained the case until 250 AD when I declared war on the Mongols. Most of the time from 10 AD to 250 AD I spent using the gold I had obtained by selling techs to rush War Elephants and upgrade the few Horsemen I had. I made alliances with Egypt and America, to stop Mongolia from doing that to me.
The Mongols had no Iron or Horses, so the 20 turns of my Golden Age was enough to take all the Mongol territory that I wanted, and while I didn't make peace there wasn't really any more fighting.
Also during the Mongol campaign I started a phony war with Babylon and this freed up Egyptian Wines for trade. I disconnected my capital and began digging upwards from the tech hole I was in, from Education & Gunpowder all the way to the Industrial age; nobody had Steam Power so I reconnected the capital and began a min run.

In 630 AD I declared war on America. Although they had horses, I had only ever seen Longbows from them fighting Mongolia, and since I had seen a lot of them, I made peace with the Mongols and formed an alliance in the hope that that would absorb a lot of the American Longbowmen (it didn't help at first but later on the Mongols did take some American towns that would've been annoying for me to reach).
But anyway, the Americans had gotten some Iron through trade, and they had Saltpeter as well, so they came at me with Knights and Cavalry, making this campaign less straightforward.

In 750 AD, after carelessly leaving my Saltpeter-snag town unguarded, it was razed by an American cav; war-weariness became a problem so switched to Monarchy.

Then, 25 turns into the Steam Power project, an embargo that the Americans had with Persia ended, and Furs were available to trade so the capital was disconnected again, and the funny games resumed; over several turns I gained a lot of gold and almost caught up in tech (I refuse to buy fascism even for free) (Also. on learning Steam Power there was no coal near my core, but there were two unconnected sources in former Mongol and American territory)

In 980 AD I was about to take the last American town, and decided to switch to Feudalism...but I had forgoten about the ww and had to spend that turn at like 90% lux (also, somewhat thoughtlessly I became Feudal the turn before I traded for Communism; I could actually have bought it sooner and gone straight to Communism. Now, I think I will wait until I discover Scientic Method and build ToE, then switch to commie as the final government? Scientific Method is due in about 10 turns and hopefully my prebuild will get me ToE seven turns after that)

I'm now at 1020 AD, 19840 culture and 408 cpt, CAII estimates 1944 for 130k which will obviously go down a lot, but I'm behind Egypt (from MapStat 25711 @ 449) so I dunno how long it'll take me to get double theirs.
I currently have 105 towns & ~25% territory, I haven't yet filled the American gaps, and I have lots of room for more ICS. I might consider a limited war with Egypt (assuming they don't consider it first ), they're my only land border now. Egypt would probably be quite tough, though, they've taken out Babylon.

Minimap from CAII:

 

[BlackBetsy]

Looking at the minimap, I have a suspicion that the way to 100k here is to wipe out Egypt. Or at least leave Egypt as a rump state. I'd be inclined to go for the Dom limit here as a way of getting 100k (130k) faster and not having to spend extra turns doubling someone.

 

[Bartleby]

Yeah, that might look more attractive when I'm in Communism.

 

[BlackBetsy]

If Egypt really is at 449 culture per turn (is that what 25711 @449 means?), then I think you pretty much have to take out Egypt or bring it down to some small cpt add.

Think of it this way - if you miraculously jumped to 1,000 cpt next turn, in 100 turns (1635 AD), you'd be at 119,480 culture. But Egypt, even if it didn't increase its culture per turn (it will, through doubling, and by building out captured cities), will be at 70,611, meaning you'd still have a way to go. Take it out another 50 turns (1804) and you still aren't there.

Also note that the max culture per city before Research Labs is 12 cpt. At 105 cities, your non-wonder max is only 1,260 cpt. It looks like maybe 20-30 more towns in the northeast where America was?

I don't know what your finish goal is, to be fair, and I think if you are playing Large demigod you goals is only to beat Sleepless night's #2, then you are *probably* OK but all other things being equal these math problems can be solved with artillery.

 

[Bartleby]

Yes, 449 culture per turn for Egypt is what MapStat says in 1020 AD but I just looked at the last five autosaves and it varies a lot (on average 368). I do expect to build a *lot* more cities relatively quickly.
But, I hadn't really made any projection of culture (mine or theirs), and you're right, I should try to do something about it. I need to build up my forces a bit - It was Cavalry vs. Muskets with America, but Egypt will have Infantry and they've been on a war footing for a while. I only have 20 Artillery that I just upgraded, 18 of those were originally Mongol or American Trebs (Thankfully I captured Leonardo's Workshop in Washington).

 

[BlackBetsy]

but I just looked at the last five autosaves and it varies a lot (on average 368)

In general, culture per turn only goes up unless a civ is losing cities. If, during the last 5 turns, culture increased from 368 to 449 per turn for Egypt....that's a very rapid pace of culture builds by the Pharaoh. But it looks like from the minimap that Egypt only has like 45 (?) cities, so 449 is pretty close to a maximum culture per turn outside of wonders + culture doubling. Temples (21 shields) and cathedrals (56 shields) aren't that cheap at Demigod for a Religious AI and those outlying cities are likely pretty corrupt, so wouldn't expect Egypt to get to 600 cpt very quickly, while you should be able to be +30 to +40 cpt when you are focused on it.

The biggest problem you have in a war with Egypt is that is a very, very wide front to protect. You'll have to keep back a substantial force of cavalry to re-take cities unless you are able to stack them with 3+ infantry.

You might want to ROP abuse Egypt (likely, this is your last big war) and pillage away a portion of the front in Egypt so they can't counterattack using a railroad network.

Good luck!

 

[Bartleby]

BlackBetsy's prediction of 1000 cpt next turn did not come true but at 1100 AD I'm at 531 (CAII now puts me at 130k in 1868 AD).

Persia beat me to Scientific Method, and Egypt then beat me to Industrialisation; I'm now zero-researching Atomic Therory, ToE is due in seven turns.

I haven't declared war on Egypt yet, but the Mongols are currently sending a stream of Longbowmen in my direction that have given me a couple of Leaders... The Pentagon and Army no. 7 respectively.

My plan is to revolt to communism and then attack Egypt once ToE finishes.



edit: I just noticed that Egypt doesn't actually have replaceable parts yet so right now they don't have Infantry

 

[Spoonwood]

My plan is to revolt to communism and then attack Egypt once ToE finishes.

It might be interesting to compare how using Communism with pop rushing compares to staying in Republic and using civil engineers. Wouldn't it be more consistent with the real world if an empire could build more culture if more citizens were alive or in cities rather than running away from them? The civil engineer approach felt better to me. If pop-rushing works out better theoretically, how much better than the civil engineer approach?

The civil engineer approach has a better plan for having an economy once buildings get built via tax collector specialists.

 

[Bartleby]

I've been using civil engineers in core cities because I didn't want to pop rush out of them...I need the commerce, but I never considered that as an alternative to pop rushing in outer cites. I don't have any calculations to back it up, but I wouldn't have thought that civil engineers can build faster than pop rushing?? A civil engineer is 2 spt but a pop point is 20 shields and with irrigation can be replaced in a couple of turns.

Anyroad, my mouse is acting up (it keeps doing unwanted clicks and randomly jumping around) so unless I can find a new one that I like tomorrow I'm probably not going to play any more civ this weekend. Waste of a long weekend.

I did play to 1170 AD last night and finished ToE, I'm now gaining 618 culture per turn. I haven't revolted yet, but I think I'm still planning to go commie.

 

[Bartleby]

At the end of the 1170 AD turn I started a revolution, and in 1190 AD started my Communist regime, and immediately regretted it for a couple of reasons. First, the CAII estimate of communal corruption is much further from the in-game figure than it was for feudal corruption; I got around 100 gpt less than I expected. Second, and I think I've made this mistake before, I forgot that you need Espionage to be able to build the SPHQ... at the maximum rate I could afford at a loss I was prepared to sustain, it would take 13 turns to research (and the loss would get bigger each turn as the cost of maintenance continued to grow).
I switched a couple of Factory builds in core towns to courthouses, where waste of shields wasn't too high, to see if that would improve the situation, but it didn't help that much.

So, in 1200 AD I revolted again, and became a Republic in 1220 AD.
I'm abandoning this game as a 100k attempt, and I'm now going to see if I can build a spaceship instead -- the LDGSpace table is only half-full anyway.
I'll sell most of the culture buildings in corrupt cities (as much as pop-rush unhappiness allows) and convert them to science farms - that should let me do some research at least.

I'm going to start a new 100k attempt, I think I have a better idea of how to go about it:

1) switch the civ to Sumeria; cheap Universities are a better bargain than cheap Cathedrals, for a game that's going to go past Education
2) no religious opponents, and go for a CB SGL, I really want the Pyramids
3) less culture, more military before Feudalism (the only revolt will be Despotism to Feudalism), build a large stack of horsemen to upgrade, then use disconnect/upgrade
4) add another opponent (maybe more, although I prefer to be able to see everybody on the Foreign Advisor screen if possible) - that should help keep the AI smaller, thus with less culture

 

[Spoonwood]

less culture, more military before Feudalism (the only revolt will be Despotism to Feudalism), build a large stack of horsemen to upgrade, then use disconnect/upgrade

I'm not clear on what you mean here.

Do you mean to get gold from the AIs and then disconnect the trade route so you don't have to pay the gpt, and then upgrade your horseman to knights/cavalry?

Or do you mean to disconnect the iron and/or saltpeter so that you can do some horseman -> knights or horseman -> cavalry upgrades by zooming to the city and then upgrading before the interturn finishes?

 

[Bartleby]

Mainly the second option, but I wasn't thinking of during the interturn, more like build/rush lot of horsemen with resources disconnected then upgrade en masse when cash is available (using the first option if possible).

 

[Spoonwood]

Mainly the second option, but I wasn't thinking of during the interturn, more like build/rush lot of horsemen with resources disconnected then upgrade en masse when cash is available (using the first option if possible).

Interturn upgrading gives one the more advanced unit ready to move on the next turn. You don't end up upgrading and the cavalry can't move on that turn. The cavalry ends up ready to move right after it got upgraded.

It doesn't work when learning a technology on that turn though. Then, the build automatically switches from the horsemen to a cavalry or knight.

 

[Bartleby]

The Indian rocket blasted off in 1560 AD. It even was a bit of a race in the end, Persia had 8 part built and two under construction, while Egypt had six built and four under construction.


Before trying again to do Large Demigod 100k as the Sumerians, I'm going to be trying Tiny Regent 100k. I played some games a couple of weeks ago, trying to get sub-1000 AD but never quite got there (I put a screenshot from one of those games in the Screenshots thread in General Discussions, when the French Great Lighthouse city flipped to me). I still have a few starts for that to try, while I set mapfinder running.

 

[templar_x]

At the end of the 1170 AD turn I started a revolution, and in 1190 AD started my Communist regime, and immediately regretted it for a couple of reasons. First, the CAII estimate of communal corruption is much further from the in-game figure than it was for feudal corruption; I got around 100 gpt less than I expected. Second, and I think I've made this mistake before, I forgot that you need Espionage to be able to build the SPHQ... at the maximum rate I could afford at a loss I was prepared to sustain, it would take 13 turns to research (and the loss would get bigger each turn as the cost of maintenance continued to grow).
I switched a couple of Factory builds in core towns to courthouses, where waste of shields wasn't too high, to see if that would improve the situation, but it didn't help that much.

So, in 1200 AD I revolted again, and became a Republic in 1220 AD.
I'm abandoning this game as a 100k attempt, and I'm now going to see if I can build a spaceship instead -- the LDGSpace table is only half-full anyway.
I'll sell most of the culture buildings in corrupt cities (as much as pop-rush unhappiness allows) and convert them to science farms - that should let me do some research at least.

I'm going to start a new 100k attempt, I think I have a better idea of how to go about it:

1) switch the civ to Sumeria; cheap Universities are a better bargain than cheap Cathedrals, for a game that's going to go past Education
2) no religious opponents, and go for a CB SGL, I really want the Pyramids
3) less culture, more military before Feudalism (the only revolt will be Despotism to Feudalism), build a large stack of horsemen to upgrade, then use disconnect/upgrade
4) add another opponent (maybe more, although I prefer to be able to see everybody on the Foreign Advisor screen if possible) - that should help keep the AI smaller, thus with less culture

I came to the same conclusions and faced the same problems with Communism in my last COTM game... can only second everything you are taking from it.
t_x

 

[Spoonwood]

The Indian rocket blasted off in 1560 AD. It even was a bit of a race in the end, Persia had 8 part built and two under construction, while Egypt had six built and four under construction.

Congratulations to you and and your Indian rocket engineers (and the hard workers in the factories, etc.) Bartleby! That gives you a 2nd, 3rd place Demigod game, in case someone tops your Tiny Diplomatic Demigod game.

 

[Bartleby]

Thanks Spoonwood. It's the 3rd fastest launch, but 4th place since 2 & 3 are tied.

 

[Spoonwood]

You're welcome Bartleby.

 

[templar_x]

Interturn upgrading gives one the more advanced unit ready to move on the next turn. You don't end up upgrading and the cavalry can't move on that turn. The cavalry ends up ready to move right after it got upgraded.

It doesn't work when learning a technology on that turn though. Then, the build automatically switches from the horsemen to a cavalry or knight.

no game open at the moment... but are you sure about this? (1st line)

i feel i remember the "upgrade during IBT+move the next turn" action only works in turns when a new tech is learnt...

upgrading units and the switch to newer now available units are two different things. (2nd line)
you sure are correct about the switch in the turn that a newer unit is available.

t_x

 

[Spoonwood]

no game open at the moment... but are you sure about this?

Yes. If you complete a unit build on one turn, and zoom to the city with the unit just built, and then upgrade in the box there, the more advanced unit will stand ready to go on the next turn. I have done that many hundreds, if not a few thousand times by now.

Edit: It has to get set to 'ask for build orders after unit construction'. That's one reason to argue against the settings in this video for single player.

i feel i remember the "upgrade during IBT+move the next turn" action only works in turns when a new tech is learnt

From what I recall no. If you learn a new technology, then say a horseman won't complete. For example, suppose we have saltpeter disconnected and no iron. So we set our build to horseman and it gets projected to complete in one turn in our city that has 15 shields per turn at least. Then we road up the saltpeter source, or trade for saltpeter. If we finish researching Electricity on the same turn, then the horseman does not complete. Instead, the build changes to a cavalry.

Double checking on someone else's save that got posted elsewhere, you can observe that if you click next turn ellipse that the knight in Ur will not complete and will change to a cavalry unit instead: