Battlemasters: Please Change!

[Zechnophobe]

So, I'm trying to figure out ways to make the Doviello not so... all or nothing. (You either win via beastie and lucian rush, or just dwindle to nothing).

I'd like to see battlemasters upgraded by having axemen never expire for the Doviello, allowingthem to build axemen, and then upgrade if they have a battlemaster nearby.

This gets them Champion strength units for cheap. If this is deemed as too strong, than require the battlemaster to 'pay' 1 xp to use the ability.

At the very least, can Battlemasters not cost more than Champions? Why should I pay for more for a weaker unit? It doesn't make sense.

As it is, it's cool that you can immediately upgrade your axemen to a battlemaster once you get one, but then it feels like you kinda stalled out. I can't help but feel I should put off Iron Working until I finish a bunch of Axeman, and then upgrade them afterwards.

Also, can we make Lucian a named Axeman in the same way that the Bandit Nietz is a named horseman? This would allow him to be upgraded at the appropriate time.

 

[Ahriman]

I'd support this. As it stands, I find Doviello very boring to play (though admittedly I'm more a builder than a warmonger). They definitely need something.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd like to replace the spell with simply letting units always upgrade in the field (maybe just if there is a Battlemaster in the stack?)



Thematically, I really think that Lucian needs to start with Iron Weapons, as his Axe is basically the last relic of the time when his people had the technology to make such weapons.


Making Lucian an Axeman could be good, but it would probably also require making him be created by an event instead of being a starting unit. That might not be a bad thing though. If this event was random and not always triggered on the first turn (like the Decius Pick Alignment event), it could break up the monotony always relying Beastmaster/Lucian rushes by making Lucian come at different points in different games. You could also make it so that he is created as a different unit based on your tech level.





In my version (if I ever get around to actually releasing ), the Doviello leaders have the new "Scavenger" trait. This trait grants the new Scavenger promotion, which gives some (and maybe and too) from successful battles (in the nearest city, using xienwolf's code), and also (though a <PythonPostCombatWon> call) lets their units steal weapons promotions from their rivals.



I just started thinking it might be quite nice to make all Doviello melee units have a chance (though a <PythonPostCombatWon> call) to be automatically upgraded for free after a successful battle. This chance would probably depend on the unit's xp, and obviously the tech level.

 

[El_Duderino]

i think it would be cool if lucian could upgrade so hes not useless after the beggining of the game

 

[deadliver]

Thematically, I really think that Lucian needs to start with Iron Weapons, as his Axe is basically the last relic of the time when his people had the technology to make such weapons.

Sounds cool.
How hard would it be to have the Axe spawn near the Doviello starting (like a lair?) and have the Doviello player retrieve it to get Lucian?

 

[Vehem]

i think it would be cool if lucian could upgrade so hes not useless after the beggining of the game

Just implemented this in Fall Further - he can upgrade to Battle Master (and from there to Phalanx/Immortal), keeps his name as "Lucian" and keeps single unit graphics. Done using Xienwolf's "EffectPromotion" - effectively makes the promotion invisible and "NewName" + "GroupSize". Will be available from Patch E onwards.

 

[MiKa523]

In my version (if I ever get around to actually releasing ), the Doviello leaders....

No offense, but maybe you should finally stop talking about it in every single post and get to work

 

[25_Hour]

So, I'm trying to figure out ways to make the Doviello not so... all or nothing. (You either win via beastie and lucian rush, or just dwindle to nothing).

I'd like to see battlemasters upgraded by having axemen never expire for the Doviello, allowingthem to build axemen, and then upgrade if they have a battlemaster nearby.

Why not just have the Battlemasters cost the same as Axemen? It would have basically the same effect as being able to upgrade them for free. Unless I'm mistaken, the Battlemasters don't have the +25% advantage vs. melee that the Champions do, so they really should get some kind of cost advantage.

To my mind, the Doviello should have at least the possibility of being formidable without rushing/beelining weapon techs (it should still be a viable strategy, it just shouldn't be the ONLY POSSIBLE strategy, as it is right now). I agree about the Doviello being kind of a one-trick pony; their only economic advantage is that of not having to build prerequisite buildings, and that's only really useful for small cities (large ones have had ample time to build them). We don't need more advantages for them in terms of warrior rush.

So here's my suggestion: Give some fairly large fixed economic advantages to Doviello cities, while penalizing happiness and/or health. This would encourage the building of many minor cities, and would hopefully make the Doviello less-pathetic midgame. Here's one possible idea:

Tyrant's Longhouse (replaces Courthouse)
-20% Maintenance
+2 Unhappiness
+6 hammers (Or some number-- balancing would be needed, natch)
Double production speed with Furs, Gold (To make them build more quickly in new cities.)

This would make smaller cities much more productive (though preventing them from growing very large), and would keep the Doviello on par with the Clan as far as production goes. The Clan would still be better for the military (effectively getting +100% production for units), but the Doviello could more easily build things like Markets, Elder Councils, Gambling Houses, etc. in new cities.

The Doviello: Masters of city spam. Eh? Eh? I think this idea will end up being more interesting than just giving them hordes of cheap units (especially since the Clan kinda has that market cornered). And they definitely need something to balance out the lack of libraries.

 

[Ahriman]

I like the concept. A large terrain empire of small cities. I can't really imagine the nomadic Doviello ever really building metropolises...

Possibly some health penalties too in exchange for hammer and gold bonuses.

 

[Senethro]

Along the similar lines of extra production and small cities, would +2 food in camps and +1 hammers on tundra allow the Doviello to have small productive cities in tundra zones based around Fur clusters/Fresh water sources?

 

[25_Hour]

Along the similar lines of extra production and small cities, would +2 food in camps and +1 hammers on tundra allow the Doviello to have small productive cities in tundra zones based around Fur clusters/Fresh water sources?

That's a cool idea with the camps. As for Tundra bonuses,I'm worried about overlapping too much with the Illians (I imagine that they'd get bonuses on cold terrain, too, having a wintry god and such.) Nobody's really sure what's going on with the Illians, though, so maybe it's an unfounded worry.

But getting back to the Battlemasters... how about removing the "Train Battlemasters" ability-- keeping the cost increase-- and replacing it with a Valor-type promotion, granting an extra experience point per battle (call it Intensive Training)? This'd encourage them to always be fighting somebody, since their army would grow experienced very fast. Or possibly a large city attack bonus, though that doesn't seem near so fun.

 

[El_Duderino]

perhaps a free promo that would have wolf related (but a non duran duran) name, that would give the ability to summon a wolf (temporary) with a strong promotion and mobility so that when combined with the empower promos could scout or act like a fireball