Be Good!

[Verdian]

Sometimes when I am playing FFH2, I find that there are certain AI leaders with a different alignment than me that I want to live and be friendly with anyway. Unfortunately, they frequently do not want to be my friend, and instead declare war on me. This puts me in the awkward situation of having to kill them.

One way around this is to vassalize the offender. I keep them under my thumb, they get to live, and we are BFF. But, vassalizing is really powerful, and can make wars frustrating and maintanence costs high. I usually play with it turned off. So, I would like to suggest a new mechanic to make other civilizations be friendlier to one another without the need to vassalize.

I think there should be a diplomacy option to force a civilization to change their alignment.

This would be the equivilant of civilization A forcing civilization B, at sword point, to change their ways or be destroyed. The AI should only accept such an option as a last resort, similar to agreeing to be a permanent vassal.

This could, of course, lead to some strange outcomes, such as a nuetral civ following Order, or a good Ashen Veil. But for some civilizations, such as those that are agnostic, or if you are spreading FoL, it would be the only way to get a positive diplomacy modifier with certain civilizations.

 

[Valkrionn]

Or, you could switch to Fall Further and play with Broader Alignments turned on... Gives you many more ways to influence your alignment.

 

[heisenberg]

Well I find that the current system works fine, and broader alignment in FF just adds a layer of cream on top for fun.
In all it just makes realistic sense that civs with different ideologies have a sense of hostility between them: just look at the real world today lol

Alignment relationship bonus/penalties are after all milder than religion-wise bonuses/penalties. If you manage to convince them (by perhaps spreading your religion thruout their land) to convert, even though they may be of a different alignment, you normally would end up being in their good books.

These relationship bonuses/penalties scale up with the AC so if you don't want so much animosity keeping the AC low could help.

Also, since you suggested that you wanted it to be diplomatically possible to "force" an alignment shift, I believe we already have one. You could simply demand that he changes religion to yours--of course you'd have to be powerful enough, and spread your religion widely to him to do so.
I mean if you were powerful enough to actually "force" another civ to change alignment (and somewhat correct their ideology), wouldn't it also mean that you were powerful enough for them -not- to attack you? The very fact that they declared war on you (despite the fact that they do not like you), means that their strength is comparable to yours. In such a scenario, why would the offending civ want to go through a revolution to join the "other side" just because you suggested it?

 

[Blackmantle]

There is one at least (doesn't really works for good civs. But works out just fine for other civs. Especially neutral ones.) if not more... .

Just join a council (preferably overcouncil. Just works for neutral civs) and adopt CoE + hug the world (with a hidden dagger in your hand ). And when i say the world, i mean it...
A builders dream. A game of diplomacy, political scheming and backstabbing at your leisure (and borderline impossible to do in unmodded civ / bts imo... At least with a comparable handicap. Since it works fine up to deity difficulty in FFH2. And rather easily at immortal and below...).

And reason alone why CoE is one of the most interesting religions in the game. Despite forum gossip about adopting CoE being sucky ( )

If you add trust (Spirit 3) to the mix (Gibbon can take care of that rather early. Which is very convenient since he is CoE's religious hero. Especially if your civ starts with sprit-mana by default... in which case going down the arcane line is non-necessary for it...) it works even outside of a council and for civs of opposite alignment (and allows for multiple! backstabs within your council without fear of retaliation or civs of different allignment going non-friendly... The council will take care of conveniently ending the ensuing conflict resulting from your blitz-backstabbing alright... ).

Only Hyborem + the Agnostics can't go down that route i belive (and the malakim + some spiritual leaders have some serious disincentives...)

Also you can! force most civs (barring just Hyborem, Cassiel, Auric and to some degree Basium (can't get him to evil if i remember correctly) i believe. Unless i overlooked one) into changing their alignment via imposing another religion on them (requires at least some spreading which isn't the hardest thing to do... Even for non-open borders ones / unfriendly ones conqering + spreading + liberating.)
Works at sword point (in negotiations during a war that went your way, big time.) or via hugging (relations pleased + paying them something in return.)
Works especially well with getting them to neutral. (since rarely does a civ stick with order or Veil even if they switch to something else afterwards...)

But being neutral is superior anyways... Druids ftw. Leave this pesky godswar to someone else.

 

[Love]

But you shouldnt be able to change alignment with cassiel.

 

[Blackmantle]

You needn't with him either (the whole thing works now thanks to him now finally being able to join councils again + he allready starts neutral so no need to switch. )
And in fact earlier than most other civs since he can't get anything from religions anyways. If an AI plays as him, he gets along with most others as well. )
If you meant that you can't force it upon him / Auric, i already mentioned that (the post is long though, so pointing it out separately might still has its uses...).

And he doesn't suffer any undue disadvantages in addition to the ones he does face anyways same for Auric Ulvin... (Auric gets to pass on Druids and Overcouncil though. Which is a shame... Nonreligious Eidoloa just don't cut it in comparison imo...)

It just doesn't really work for Hyborem (unless of course you want to pass on Veil. Which is rather unlikely... and Overcouncil is never an option...)
Adopting CoE doesn't work for any of the 3 though. Which is quite a disadvantage since it removes the ability for mean and effective backstabbing...


Also you can't force others to switch their allignment effectively if you play Hyborem, Cassiel and Auric + to a degree for Basium (can't switch nonevil ones to evil with him.).

 

[Verdian]

It is true that Councils work very well to solve the problem, but I find that even when the computer has one city left and a hostile army surrounding it, they will still not adopt things sometimes when I tell them to. And yet they will agree to be vassalized.

And even if they do join my council, the fact that they are Evil is still irksome. If we are BFF, you'd think my shining morals of righteousness would have rubbed off on them.

 

[Mailbox]

I just had an interesting game as the Illians where I founded and spread the CoE while also building the shrine. It's so nice to have the extra gold, even if you're unable to adopt the religion proper. You also get the awesome effects of the Nox Noctis and can head the Undercouncil. It's a good way to keep a neighbor close to you, as long as you convert them to CoE and get them in the council.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Veridan: That may be due to various reasons: One of them being that they switched recently.

You have to take notice of why they refuse to adopt. Depending on the reason given different things are the cause. For example you cant switch every turn or during anarchy...
I sometimes wonder why enforced things won't be accepted but a few turns later they are.
There are seemingly many factors. One big of them being relations and a civs aptitude towards a given religion. Only someone who can read the code can make it completely clear to us.