What lesser-known/obscure civilizations can be included in Civ7?

[Willie5000]

I didn't realize Sweden was an obscure and unknown country... huh.

 

[Xandinho]

I didn't realize Sweden was an obscure and unknown country... huh.

It refers to the ancient Swedes tribes, but I should have specified.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

The problem is that their religion has been extremely influential, but their civilization was completely overshadowed by their neighbors, especially the Phoenicians, by far the most influential of the Canaanite civs. I think Judah is better represented by having Judaism as a religion in the game and as an Independent People.

Their religious writings had a huge focus on their culture, history, geography, and great people. Go to any art museum in the world, and you’ll find paintings depicting scenes of Hebrew individuals and of locals in Israel. Read any real literature from more than fifty years ago and you’ll find allusions and references to Israelite history.

I’d wager that even in today’s increasingly irreligious landscape, most people can name more Israelite people, places, and events than they could for any other nation except their own.

If Mississippi and Buganda can be full fledged civilizations, why should the extremely influential Israelites be relegated to the status of an Independent Power?

 

[Archanist]

Oh, another minor 'civ' (if it can be called that) which I'd love to see in the game would be the Republic of Pirates. It'd be an unusual choice sure, but a very fun way to interact with the exploration age economic legacy path.

+1 for this, they sound amazing for this specific legacy path but them popping up from any antiquity civ feels weird. If anything, having Blackbeard as a leader might be able to scratch some of that itch

 

[Lord Lakely]

I didn't realize you needed credentials now.

pedantry AND reading comprehension*

 

[Patine]

pedantry AND reading comprehension*

Why are we still discussing this?

 

[Potworny]

You run into the Etruscan-Rome issue where you'd have Proto-Greeks and Classical Greeks sharing an Age, but if the Minoans earn a spot on the list I don't see why the Mycenaeans can't be part of the discussion either.

I'd personally say that the Etruscans are unique enough as a people with the distinct language group and characteristics of their trade and art. I also think that relationship of Etruscans and Romans was closer to the one between Minoans and Mycenaenans due to antagonism than Mycenaenan-Greek progression. Though a lot of time has passed since I read about this stuff, so I might betalking nonsense.

I'm also strongly biased toward Etruscans, I'd love to see them (though maybe after we get some non-European civs - I hope Tonga gets in soon). I realise my picks aren't that obscure.

Can we put together a coherent Civ design for the Etruscans? Do we have a language to name their Civics and Policies with?

Although I wish that we got the Claudius' Etruscan dictionary during my lifetime, there are some rudimentary Etruscan dictionaries and glossaries made thanks to archeological finds and comparative linguistics. For the sake of abilities, policies and civics we actually have more than enough of words and grammar comprehension. I believe there are several hundred words, prefixes and suffixes and we know their word order and some of their cases.

 

[Wabnosa]

Niswi-Mishkodewinan aka 3 Fires Council, Ojibwe/Chippewa, Odawa and Bodewademi

 

[thecrazyscot]

I would love to see any of them tbh but in particular the Minoans, Harappans, and Etruscans.

 

[j51]

I would love to see any of them tbh but in particular the Minoans, Harappans, and Etruscans.

The problem with the Minoans is that everything we know about them comes from either archeology, or a successor culture that steeps them in myth. Everything else, including some of the reconstructions of their art is based in modernist western fantasias of an imagined Atlantean non-patriarchic pre-Fall of Man narrative (lol). They’d be far better as an IP imo.

 

[Kilroy Was Here]

I think a Métis civilization for the Modern Age could be really, really cool. Mixing Indigenous/European aspects would be interesting.

Cosigned. I read The Northwest is Our Mother recently, what a fantastic ethnography.

I'd like to see, frankly, any and everything. They could put anyone in and I'd be like "woo!" I'm excited for the possibility of cultures who dislike portraying their historical people, such as the Pueblo and some Aboriginal Australians, to be able to get in now that they don't need a leader model attached.

 

[The Fanatical]

+1 for the Minoans and the Etruscans. Other fascinating but lesser known options to the community with undeciphered or poorly documented languages are:

the Thracians UMU Peltast (ranged infantry with javevins and peltae)

the Dacians UMU Comati (infantry with draco standards and falxes)

the Illyrians UMU Liburna (I've seen people want a pirate civilization, rather than having one we can have three, one in each age, Illyria can fill that role in the Antiquity Age)

the Iberians UMU Balearic Slinger

the Lydians UMU Hippomachoi (heavy horseman with lance)

the Lycians UMU Sea Raider (infantry unit comprised of Sea People)

the Numidians UMU Numidian Cavalry (shielded ranged light horseman with javelins)

 

[Zaarin]

Their religious writings had a huge focus on their culture, history, geography, and great people. Go to any art museum in the world, and you’ll find paintings depicting scenes of Hebrew individuals and of locals in Israel. Read any real literature from more than fifty years ago and you’ll find allusions and references to Israelite history.

I’d wager that even in today’s increasingly irreligious landscape, most people can name more Israelite people, places, and events than they could for any other nation except their own.

Again, that's their religion. Judea was a poor, undeveloped backwater compared to Samaria, Moab, Phoenicia, or even the Philistine pentapolis. No one is contesting the influence of their religion, of which my own is a descendent, but that is not equal to the influence of their civilization, which was very minimal. (I do actually think a Kingdom of Judah civ could be interesting--more interesting than Samaria or Philistia, which would both resemble Phoenicia too much--but I'd consider it a low priority, especially when Mesopotamia currently has no civs, Phoenicia is not yet in the game, and Persia is poorly represented by a single civ.)

The problem with the Minoans is that everything we know about them comes from either archeology, or a successor culture that steeps them in myth. Everything else, including some of the reconstructions of their art is based in modernist western fantasias of an imagined Atlantean non-patriarchic pre-Fall of Man narrative (lol). They’d be far better as an IP imo.

You're not wrong, but the exact same is true of the Mississippians. Though for what it's worth the Atlantis nonsense was expunged from Minoan studies a good century ago, and the "Minoa was a pacifist matriarchy" fell out of fashion decades ago. Pop culture takes time to catch up, of course.

 

[Kankan]

The Nok whilst they would be an interesting and great West African Antiquity Civ, are so poorly documented that it may not be possible for them to be a part of the game based on its mechanics unless it has a reduced Civic Tree and no associated wonder. However as a gimmicky civ they could work where the wonder is replaced with unique relics that provide extra bonuses and count as multiple towards a culture victory.

Benin would make for an interesting exploration civ however as I could see the Walls of Benin (Iya) working similarly to the Great Wall.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

for what it's worth the Atlantis nonsense was expunged from Minoan studies a good century ago, and the "Minoa was a pacifist matriarchy" fell out of fashion decades ago. Pop culture takes time to catch up, of course.

Furthermore, the archeological evidence and material for the Minoans is far more extensive than just Evan's self-serving reconstruction of Knossos. The frescos in Akrotiri alone have given us details of Minoan ships, harbor and industrial/working architecture. The numerous pieces of surviving Minoan artwork give us a great deal of information on costume, personal adornment, and even hair styles. We can, basically, reconstruct a pretty accurate set of Minoan Leaders/Great People, though nameless, of either sex.

Finally, the Greek borrowing from Minoan words helps a lot. As an example, 'Knossos' is not a Greek city name: it is Minoan in origin , simply re-used by the later Myceneans and classical Greeks, and there are enough similar examples that we can even reconstruct a city list of 'real' Minoan settlements.

 

[j51]

Furthermore, the archeological evidence and material for the Minoans is far more extensive than just Evan's self-serving reconstruction of Knossos. The frescos in Akrotiri alone have given us details of Minoan ships, harbor and industrial/working architecture. The numerous pieces of surviving Minoan artwork give us a great deal of information on costume, personal adornment, and even hair styles. We can, basically, reconstruct a pretty accurate set of Minoan Leaders/Great People, though nameless, of either sex.

Finally, the Greek borrowing from Minoan words helps a lot. As an example, 'Knossos' is not a Greek city name: it is Minoan in origin , simply re-used by the later Myceneans and classical Greeks, and there are enough similar examples that we can even reconstruct a city list of 'real' Minoan settlements.

Oh definitely to all of the above, but creating and naming the unique ability and the traits could still be difficult. I’d love a Minoan civ but would rather just have an IP if they’re going to make it too fantastical.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oh definitely to all of the above, but creating and naming the unique ability and the traits could still be difficult. I’d love a Minoan civ but would rather just have an IP if they’re going to make it too fantastical.

The biggest problem with a Minoan civilization is that the known Unique aspects of the Civ overlap far too much with any Phoenician Civ: extensive trade routes, sea faring expertise, wealth derived from acting as middle-men between other Civs and regions (like Egypt, Greece, Sicily, Anatolia). To make them really 'different', then, we would have to fall back on their art work, which is distinctive, and the palace-distributive economics and cattle-based religion, both of which are probably derived from the middle east and so are only unique if the game fiddles the details or simply doesn't include any Mesopotamian entities like the Mitanni, Hurrians, Hittites, Akkadians, etc. Given that the Phoenicians are already available to 'step in' to the Minoan's trade/naval slot, that s a lot to give up IMHO.

 

[The Fanatical]

Can we put together a coherent Civ design for the Etruscans? Do we have a language to name their Civics and Policies with?

I would love if the answers were “yes,” even if there isn’t much room for Ancient Italians when they would share an Age with Rome.

For the cities, definitely yes, but I am not certain about the Civics and Policies. The language has some 1300 surviving inscriptions compared to the 100 of the Lydian language or the 200 of the Lycian. But only the minority of inscriptions are lengthy because most of them are probably from funerary monuments and tombs. Even then, Firaxis can't be stopped and have shown their ingenuity when giving names before (Burning Arrow).

I know that the Mycenaeans might go against the spirit of this poll (some may consider them not obscure enough?), but if the Minoans are here I think it only makes sense to include their successors with more identifiable uniques and a better attested language.

You run into the Etruscan-Rome issue where you'd have Proto-Greeks and Classical Greeks sharing an Age, but if the Minoans earn a spot on the list I don't see why the Mycenaeans can't be part of the discussion either.

Mycenaean and Minoan Independent Peoples, anyone? Mycenae is just asking to be a City-State.

I would like to see the Mycenaeans as an additional civilization. If Macedon was in Civilization VI (and perhaps in Civilization VII), then why not Mycenae? The current civilization named Greece seems to draw its design exclusively from the Archaic and Classical Greek city-states, meaning that a separate Mycenaean civilization will be unique and interesting enough when added. Despite this, Mykenai has been seen as a city of the Greek civilization and I have high doubts if they will ever appear as one of the Independent People, but there is still some hope that they will be seen as a playable civilization. After all, when has this ever stopped Firaxis from making single cities to new full-fledged civilizations?

Mykenai is in a difficult position where it would be extremely interesting and also extremely redundant. For a number of reasons I'd prefer Minoa for Late Bronze/Early Iron Age palace culture, the most obvious being that it's not Greek. Still, if we ever did get a Bronze Age...Mykenai would be an obvious inclusion. And yes, Minoans as an IP would be great, and add Labyrinth to the Unique Improvements available from IPs--and the Palace of Knossos as an unassociated wonder would be nice.

I think it's uncertain if the Minoans were Greek or not. The language is undeciphered which leads nowhere, but the DNA analysis shows a very close relation between Mycenaeans and Minoans. They share the same Anatolian Neolithic ancestry with some additional Eastern ancestry from the Caucasus, the difference being a mere 4-16% ancestry for the Mycenaeans that comes from a northern source (hunter-gatherers of Eastern Europe and Siberia). That small portion of northern ancestry is absent for the Minoans.

 

[Phrozen]

I am not remotely an expert on South America or the Andes, but aren't the Moche the best known (in terms of their culture and society) due to their influence on the Chimu? Would there be enough information to put together all the unique accoutrements for the other two?

The Chimu were a successor culture after the Moche collapsed. The Moche were not Andean but coastal. We have a ton of their pottery and their monumental architecture was bigger than anything else in South America and most likely the Americas. Huaca del Sol was massive, being almost as tall as Meso-American temples but much bigger in area. They however did not have writing and were long gone by the time the Inca reached that part of Peru.

 

[The Fanatical]

The biggest problem with a Minoan civilization is that the known Unique aspects of the Civ overlap far too much with any Phoenician Civ: extensive trade routes, sea faring expertise, wealth derived from acting as middle-men between other Civs and regions (like Egypt, Greece, Sicily, Anatolia). To make them really 'different', then, we would have to fall back on their art work, which is distinctive, and the palace-distributive economics and cattle-based religion, both of which are probably derived from the middle east and so are only unique if the game fiddles the details or simply doesn't include any Mesopotamian entities like the Mitanni, Hurrians, Hittites, Akkadians, etc. Given that the Phoenicians are already available to 'step in' to the Minoan's trade/naval slot, that s a lot to give up IMHO.

Yes, but not only the Phoenicians can be added in every iteration of the franchise but at the same time they can be given a different approach if needed with bonuses focusing on colonization and levying mercenary units instead of trading. On the other hand, this is exactly the right game for the Minoans to appear. Linear A is undeciphered and unspeakable, meaning that Minos and the Minoans would have never appeared under the old model in past titles.