Beating the Space Race Rush

[Zaimejs]

It seems that when I play on Noble, if I'm not way ahead at the end of the game, I end up losing to one of the AIs because they just focus on building the spaceship.

The last game I played, I was over 2000 points ahead of everyone. I conquered Caesar and Saladin (why does it seem to be the same AIs every time?!). And then, by the time I was done conquering, I was way behind in tech, and I tried to catch up, but it was too late. I tried to send in spies to kill production, but that didn't work. Other than going to war, is there a way to prevent an AI from building?

Another question on a different topic but not worth a thread because it's probably been brought up.

I hate how once I get into a war (usually not by choice), I have to devote my resources to fighting and my technology suffers. I think that if you're in a war, your tech for military advancements should actually be improved. I mean, look at what we accomplished during the wars! Without the war, we wouldn't have rushed the Manhattan Project... tanks... aircraft (especially jets). Rockets! All of that stuff was the result of war.

Just a thought... has anyone done a mod that actually improves military research rates while at war?

 

[mice]

Just a thought... has anyone done a mod that actually improves military research rates while at war?

That's an interesting idea. The more you warmonger, the cheaper the war techs become. It might be able to be tied into the function that creates warlords.

About the space race, it's frustrating isn't it, but really the answer is that at noble(my level too) you should be able to beat the AI at the race. It comes down to doing all the basics better.

Also maybe you're getting hit harder by war wariness than you have to. Theatres and 10% culture help your core cities to stay productive even during a long war. Maybe one producton city set aside for military so that you dont interupt your space parts production. this way you can declare on that leading civ,having built good defensive units,and a small stack just to annoy them and to divert thier production away from the space race. Pillage etc.

 

[gaiko]

And betcha it's the guy featured on your avatar that often beats you to it...

Yes, it took me a while to figure that one out, too - with the help of these forums.

Basically you have to target the individual AI civs from the very moment you encounter them. You want to go after the notorious GP-techers first, if possible. Besides Ghandi (who though a bit nerfed in Warlords, should still be whacked asap) there is as always Elizabeth, Mansa Musa and don't forget the Inca Huancha (sp?). At the other extreme are the most notorious warmongers.

Then you have to consider the unknown AIs on the other continent. Assume from the start that there is at least one notorious builder-techer (Bismarck? kill, kill! not a main enemy you want in the late game) and come up with a grand mid late game strategy to either take them out or diplomatically isolate them. Also be looking for the emergence of one big happy religious bloc party on the other continent, break this up at all costs.

And then there is the Romans, they are #1 on my list if they are anywhere near me - unless you can effectively vassalize their praetorians

But timing is everything - you should carefully lay out a strategy as any of the above make their appearance, and adjust accordingly as they do appear.

If you are a warmonger on your home continent, you can be sure the AI will try to raise up a builder to out-tech you to the space race (the AI's favorite game bail, because it is incompetent at the other victories) so you should target the lesser civs on the other continent diplomatically if possible, while you should militarily target in advance (even if you do not actually go to war) the lead techer and adjust that target if another civ becomes the tech leader. Therefore you should prepare for nukes, and should gete fission right after Sattelites and Robotics.

Because if you fail to get an inter-AI war going against the lead techer on the other continent, you must be prepared to intervene yourself to stop the leader.

It seems that when I play on Noble, if I'm not way ahead at the end of the game, I end up losing to one of the AIs because they just focus on building the spaceship.

The last game I played, I was over 2000 points ahead of everyone. I conquered Caesar and Saladin (why does it seem to be the same AIs every time?!). And then, by the time I was done conquering, I was way behind in tech, and I tried to catch up, but it was too late. I tried to send in spies to kill production, but that didn't work. Other than going to war, is there a way to prevent an AI from building?

Another question on a different topic but not worth a thread because it's probably been brought up.

I hate how once I get into a war (usually not by choice), I have to devote my resources to fighting and my technology suffers. I think that if you're in a war, your tech for military advancements should actually be improved. I mean, look at what we accomplished during the wars! Without the war, we wouldn't have rushed the Manhattan Project... tanks... aircraft (especially jets). Rockets! All of that stuff was the result of war.

Just a thought... has anyone done a mod that actually improves military research rates while at war?

 

[InvisibleStalke]

If your problem is that your research is dropping too much during war, thats probably the place to start. Some possibilities:

- You probably didn't keep a large enough standing army - hence you got attacked as you looked vulnerable to the AI and when you got attacked you couldn't build troops fast enough to win the war quickly - it ended up being a war of attrition with war weariness killing your science rate.

- You probably didn't keep a cash reserve or get a quick cash injection by selling techs to noncombatants - upgrading units quickly with cash and having a lot of cash on hand can help you survive a war without dropping science too much.

- Do you have too few production cities to build troops quickly? And later these cities can help you get the spaceship out quickly.

In general, war can help your research rate - but it should be a steady advance into the enemy territory with their cities being razed for cash or joining your empire to help your long term research. But a war of attrition does the opposite. If I find I am in such a war I try to bribe some allies if I can and negotiate a peace settlement as soon as possible if I can't. Then in the 10 turn peace break, rebuild your army and declare war as soon as you can regain a tech or production lead.

Once the AI starts on the space race, then a lot depends on how far ahead of you they are. They need both good research and production to win - check their power graph for both. You may have enough time to pull off another victory type. Or you might have to grit your teeth and go to war. Or better still bribe another AI to start the war (although an AI thats running away with the space race is probably going to scare off any weaker AIs - they probably have a very good army at that point.)

If you do start a war yourself then you don't necessarily have to pursue it to victory - as long as you can defend your core, then it might be better to fight a defensive war and distract them from the spacerace. Pillaging might be better than all out war.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Forgot what I was going to say

 

[Zaimejs]

Thanks, you all give good advice...

My army was probably too small. I was attacked by Caesar... and then Saladin (his neighbor) declared war also. I easily destroyed them, but it took time and resources to build up some tanks to wipe them off the map. And while I was doing this, Egypt was teching... no enemies...

We were all on the same continent... and I really don't know how to get AIs to declare war on one another.

I guess i have to keep working on the army balance. This is a Civ II trait that I need to get rid of. In Civ II, I could pretty much go without a large fighting force for most of the game... in Civ IV, you can't do that. The AI Smells weakness. I also don't do enough checking up on other Civs to see where they are at. That will help.

I like the idea of selling tech. Generally, I just trade, but I can easily see the benefit of building up a big cash supply by outteching the opponents.

Great advice all. Thanks!

 

[Melinko]

My army was probably too small. I was attacked by Caesar... and then Saladin (his neighbor) declared war also. I easily destroyed them, but it took time and resources to build up some tanks to wipe them off the map. And while I was doing this, Egypt was teching... no enemies...

Unless they are your ally or something on those lines, it is usually just better to assume that is going to happen, and keep enough of an army back to defend against it. Worse case scenerio they don't and you have more units to guard your new cities!

We were all on the same continent... and I really don't know how to get AIs to declare war on one another.

That is really hard to do sometimes especially without agressive AI's turned on. Give them Lots and lots of stuff on a continual basises till you are +4 with trade, Set your civics to the same.. if they ask for anything give it to them! After all this ya might be able to get them to go to war with someone they dislike heh

I like the idea of selling tech. Generally, I just trade, but I can easily see the benefit of building up a big cash supply by outteching the opponents.

The computer trades like madmen why not join them! heh

 

[Zaimejs]

Wow... what a difference. I tried some of these tips, and I'm way ahead in tech and strength. I did a lot of trading... selling tech to lower civs... building up cash and keeping my research up. Wow. I am dominating Noble... I almost feel like I'm ready to move up. Maybe a couple more noble games, and then I'll be ready. I'm still to sloppy with the micromanagement. I like the big picture... big strategy, and I sometimes forget about slaves, chopping, etc. I also choose my advancements a bit whimsically without really thinking through the benefits.

Which wonders aren't worth getting? Which are the Must Haves? I'm sure this has been answered elsewhere (goes to the archives).

 

[scherbchen]

well i wouldn´t know about the *best* wonders (those basically come down to playstyle and strategy), but i really feel bad when i get beaten to the oracle (usually for code of laws) or the great library. i find that no matter which victory type or gameplan i am going for i always build those two.

 

[Zaimejs]

I missed both of them... and how many times do I miss a wonder by one turn? This is the big difference between Civ II and IV that makes me angry. If I had one turn left on a wonder, and an AI did too, I would get the benefit of the build... but now it seems that AIs always win that battle.

 

[automator]

If you're having a problem with the AI doing the space race thing, but don't want a war ...

* Get another Civ to attack. Buy off an angry neighbor to go to war with the civ who is building the fastest. The AI tends to halt all spaceship production if in a war.

* Use spies effectively. This means not sabotaging production in a city; it's expensive and rarely works. Instead, sabotage luxuries and food. Getting rid of aluminum, copper and iron can help, but they tend to be guarded. But if you destroy all their luxuries, they'll have big, unhappy cities. Couple that with taking out food resources and they'll be hungry. Destroy thier irrigation networks, and they'll starve faster. You don't need to be told that a pop 8 city builds a life support system a lot slower than a pop 20 city.

 

[NotReady4Purple]

I've found it works to use spies/submarines to destroy oil production. That can really stall the AI's modern development.

 

[cabert]

at noble level, you don't need to do spy tricks.
You can outtech them easily, and you can outproduce them even easier.
If you can't, you lack one those things:
- (early) workers
- expansion (more cities is often more power)
- worked cottages
- military units
- specialization (there is only one IronWork city, choose it wisely, build the wonder ASAP, don't forget to connect iron and coal...)

 

[Zaimejs]

I did better at noble after applying tips... however, I found myself in the same situation. I was way ahead in tech. All opponents on a small crowded continent. I was right next to Caesar. I expanded early and got a nice chunk and was the first to galleys, so I got a couple of footholds on some big islands. I have the largest, most advanced civ. Way ahead by points.

Then Caesar attacks, and I have to devote my resources to that... then the Spanish declare war with elephants and take one of my cities through attrition... now I'm redoubling my military production to fight on two fronts.

I finally declare peace after almost wiping out Caesar. Suddenly Saladin is making space units and I'm still working on rocketry.

So I'm going to lose again unless I do something fast. I'm going to try pumping out some spies. I looked at a military solution, and I may still pursue it, but the city closest to me has about 20 SAM units and some other stuff in it as well. I still can't figure out how he can produce so many units while producing tech and improving cities.

 

[cabert]

don't worry about them building the first parts.
At noble level, they almost never manage to produce the big ones fast enough.
The question is can YOU build fast enough?
And you obviously had fallen back (again) on military + not the same religion as Isabella.

edit : score is irrelevant. You won't win a fight with culture.

 

[drkodos]

I would take a close look at your tech tree decisions and tech discovery orders and see if there is something there that is crimping your development.

If you are going for a space race victory there is usally a lot of "pork" on the tech tree can be trimmed away without hurting one's economy and/or military status.


Beelining toward Rocketry takes one past Rifling and Artillery, so I often make race through these branch system. Rifles will stop any enemy incursions dead in their tracks and artillery can be used to "clear-out some space" and prune away troublesome neighbors on your borders.

Once you grab Rocketry, get back in and grab Industrial techs to get Powered factories up while Apollo Mission is being built. Then make the tech run through Computers to build quick labs in four or five crucial cities. Make sure to have set-up a great location for the IronWorks, complete with Powered factory, forge, to knock out Apollo Mission quick-fast and then use it to build the 2 most expensive Spaceship parts as they come online.

Auminum is revealed with Industrialism. Use it!. Get it hooked while Apollo Mission is being built. Forget about Space Elevator. Yes, you need to grab Satellites, but the Elevator is too many hammers to toss away and won't come online until after you have 60% of your ship completed anyway. Assign the multiple unit parts (Thrusters) to some mid-size cities, keeping the top 2 or 3 hammer producering cities open for the larger, more hammer intensive parts.

Many times, one can have a smaller city or two working on the SS Casings, so that are the last item to get completed and time them out with the Docking Bay or Stasis Chamber.


Keep one city pumping out Rifles and Artillery the whole time, upgrade to infantry if need be, and the Big Bad Wolf won't even look at your door anymore.

 

[Zaimejs]

See... I went for tanks... probably didn't need that.

Thanks for the tech tips. I'll keep working and let you know!

 

[Zaimejs]

After many, many hours... I finally finished the game. Won in a stupid time victory. I bet I was close on population... I was 8 votes away from winning in the UN

Bah... humbug!

I did use my spy to harass Saladin. She would blow up his only aluminum mine... and he would rebuild it. What I don't understand is how he was able to instantly produce space modules right after rebuilding the mine? You can't hurry production on those. I would look at his cities, and he'd be producing nothing... then as soon as the mine was rebuilt, he'd have three things.. BAM.

I hate the game when it cheats.

I felt pretty in control throughout the whole noble game... hopefully I'll be ready to move up to Prince soon.

Thanks for the help!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^I turn off Space Race victory as I never go for it. Since when it is on, it is pretty much the only victory the AI goes for, I always turn it off. In Warlords, if it is off, the AI tends to be much more aggressive (well, not the ultra peaceful ones), and I also turn off tech trading which gives the game an interesting dynamic as all civs will have a different level of technology instead of the everyone-selling-all-techs-to-everyone-else strat the AI always uses. To say this is cheating is sort of silly since tech trading tends to help the player more than the AI since the player has the ability to reason and adapt and the AI only has pre-programed algorythms

 

[Bierp]

After many, many hours... I finally finished the game. Won in a stupid time victory. I bet I was close on population... I was 8 votes away from winning in the UN

Bah... humbug!

I did use my spy to harass Saladin. She would blow up his only aluminum mine... and he would rebuild it. What I don't understand is how he was able to instantly produce space modules right after rebuilding the mine? You can't hurry production on those. I would look at his cities, and he'd be producing nothing... then as soon as the mine was rebuilt, he'd have three things.. BAM.

I hate the game when it cheats.

Destroying the strategic resource (aluminum here) doesn't toss out all the hammers that have gone into construction of a unit/building/SS part, etc. Production will be halted, but once the resource is available they will be able to continue production.

I believe there is some hammer atrophy after 10 turns though.

B