Beating the Space Race Rush

[wioneo]

Doesn't aluminum just speed up production? I didn't know that it was necessary...

 

[Welnic]

Aluminum isn't needed to build SS parts, it just speeds it up. It is 100% faster. But since these things are added together, if there are already some bonuses then even that number is misleading. If you have a forge and factory that is 50%, another 50% if you have some form of power, then Ironworks with coal and iron is 100%. So if you have a base of 50 hammers, you have 150 hammers with that help, and then 200 hammers if you have aluminum. So it is not that much slower in the best cities without aluminum.

 

[drkodos]

Aluminum isn't needed to build SS parts, it just speeds it up. It is 100% faster. But since these things are added together, if there are already some bonuses then even that number is misleading. If you have a forge and factory that is 50%, another 50% if you have some form of power, then Ironworks with coal and iron is 100%. So if you have a base of 50 hammers, you have 150 hammers with that help, and then 200 hammers if you have aluminum. So it is not that much slower in the best cities without aluminum.

True, but that makes it 33% FASTER in the top hammer cities, which is a pivotal advantage when knocking out the expensive components in a tight race, relatively changing something from 4 turns construction to only 3.

 

[aelf]

Forget about Space Elevator. Yes, you need to grab Satellites, but the Elevator is too many hammers to toss away and won't come online until after you have 60% of your ship completed anyway.

This sounds like one of those "don't ever do that because I think it's not the way to go" things. Personally, I always build the Space Elevator for the space race because I don't rush for Rifling and Artillery when there's significant competition. I get Plastics, Radio and maybe Computers first, preferring to trade for Rifling and Artillery if possible. This allows to grab some useful wonders along the way (esp. the Three Gorges Dam). All the AIs always go Rifling and Artillery anyway, so it's easy to trade for them.

So what if the AIs start building SS Casings first? Those are cheap. After I get the Space Elevator, I can build the expensive parts much more quickly. If I play the same game as the AIs and rush for Rifling and Artillery and then get bogged down building all the casings and the expensive components the slow way, I might just lose. They will get to the other techs before me with their bonuses on Emperor and I would only stand to lose. Especially after one of them builds the Space Elevator. I would have no chance of winning.

If the competition is not so fierce, you can skip the Space Elevator. Completing the Apollo Program and starting on the spaceship first may give you an earlier victory date, since in that situation the AI might not get Rifling and Artillery till much later. But if that's the case, you can probably win by domination or conquest if you try.

 

[Zaimejs]

^I turn off Space Race victory as I never go for it. Since when it is on, it is pretty much the only victory the AI goes for, I always turn it off. In Warlords, if it is off, the AI tends to be much more aggressive (well, not the ultra peaceful ones), and I also turn off tech trading which gives the game an interesting dynamic as all civs will have a different level of technology instead of the everyone-selling-all-techs-to-everyone-else strat the AI always uses. To say this is cheating is sort of silly since tech trading tends to help the player more than the AI since the player has the ability to reason and adapt and the AI only has pre-programed algorythms

This is what I've done on several games, and I've found them to be more enjoyable! I like the no tech trading because then it's mano e mano... and space race is kind of a cheap victory.

I feel stupid for not knowing that aluminum is not necessary... I thought it was. What resources are necessary for space stuff?!

Thanks....

(can't wait for Warlords for Mac!!!)

 

[drkodos]

This sounds like one of those "don't ever do that because I think it's not the way to go" things. Personally, I always build the Space Elevator for the space race because I don't rush for Rifling and Artillery when there's significant competition. I get Plastics, Radio and maybe Computers first, preferring to trade for Rifling and Artillery if possible. This allows to grab some useful wonders along the way (esp. the Three Gorges Dam). All the AIs always go Rifling and Artillery anyway, so it's easy to trade for them.

I agree that I did not state it very well.

I have found that the Space Elevator is tremendously helpful and have built it many times in winning Space Races, but I have also found that panicking about it and forcing it in are not the key and primary elements in winning the race.

I tend to prioritize getting powered factories, and getting aluminum hooked up and almost always have all the SS production cities powered long before one could even build the Dam or the Elevator. Is there a need for the damn once one has coal powered factories in their SS production cities? (Besides the obvious health issues?) Both coal plants and factories are made available with the same tech (Assembly Line), so with adequate planning, I have both factory and plant up within a couple of turns after tech discovery. I believe that Ironworks maxes out production with both coal and iron, so I have come to play a style (in SS Games) that makes Three Gorges Dam superfluous.

When there is a choice of where to of hammer investment that has to be made between building a specific wonder or building infrastructure that feeds more than one need, I usually choose the latter path.

Also, if you remember, I was giving a path that gives the person a strong military as well. Allowing others to grab Rifling and Artillery first (if they are warlike civs, is that good idea?), can put one behind in the power graph. I like grabbing them first and immediately upgrading all units to rifles for the bump on the power graph which is the best INSURANCE against invasion.

If you look at the hammers spent for TGD (1750) and SE (2000), you will see those total hammers (3750) represent :

SS Docking Bay 1200
SS Engine 1000
SS Cockpit 800

With a surplus of 750 hammers.

Or

8 Factories (250 X 8) 2000
8 Coal Plants (150 X 8) 1000

With a surplus of 750 Hammers

Or

5 Factories 1250
5 Coal Plants 750
5 Laboratories 1250

With a surplus of 500 Hammers.

This is why I argue that Space Elevator and Three Gorges are POTENTIAL red herrings that could easily take time, sidetrack real production, and actaully cost one the space race just as likely as it could win it.

 

[aelf]

My regular space race strategy on Emperor is what I described in my previous post. When I'm going for a space race, it usually means the diplomatic scene has stabilized. If I still have enemies that are not backward, I usually have defensive pacts to protect myself so Rifling and Artillery are not crucial.

The problem with letting the AI get Space Elevator in a tight space race on higher levels is the fact that you might lose. Getting it yourself not only denies it to your rivals, it also allows you to outbuild them. After that, you don't build up gradually, you go all out researching all the necessary techs and building the parts as quickly as possible. And this strategy helps with research because, like I said, you can trade for Rilfing/Artillery instead of researching them yourself and then getting beaten to Radio/Plastics/Computers/Robotics.

I agree that Three Gorges' Dam is not necessary. But I often find myself in a situation where the +2 unhealthiness from coal plants are stunting growth in my big cities, which are usually the production centres. If you have a few high-hammer cities, chances are one of them might not have anything to build besides units. This city can build the Dam.

Maybe it's just the way my games have turned out so far, but I find this strategy better in general.

 

[UncleJJ]

This is why I argue that Space Elevator and Three Gorges are POTENTIAL red herrings that could easily take time, sidetrack real production, and actaully cost one the space race just as likely as it could win it.

Firstly, I am no Space Race expert preferring Domination as the one true way to win the game . I would like to comment, however.

Good hammer cost analysis drkodos, but you are comparing at least slightly different things. Hammers used to build space parts are special since they need to be "real hammers" and come from genuine production. The hammers needed to build the Space Elevator and Three Gorges Dam can be supplimented by other means such as popping a GE or rush buying with Universal Sufferage at 6 gold per hammer, without Kremlin and I'm not sure how Kremlin can reduce the costs per hammer. That can significantly affect the decision as to whether to build those wonders depending on how rich you are or if you have a spare GE.

There is also aelf's point about denying the advantages to the AI civs you are racing against which I very much agree with.

 

[tycoonist]

i just won my first game on prince doing almost exactly what you did...
i stumbled blindly into wars, leaving me techs behind the 2 other super-powers( Vic and Fred). however i won using this tactic:
Rush for space elevator, aluminium, spaceship parts, laboratory, factories
in top 6 cities build parts when available, all cities research when not building lab/parts/SE/factories etc.

having said all this, i got lucky with the UN and Fred voted for me too giving me a diplo vic. But i was going to win the space race quite easily too...

 

[drkodos]

The problem with letting the AI get Space Elevator in a tight space race on higher levels is the fact that you might lose. Getting it yourself not only denies it to your rivals, it also allows you to outbuild them. After that, you don't build up gradually, you go all out researching all the necessary techs and building the parts as quickly as possible. And this strategy helps with research because, like I said, you can trade for Rilfing/Artillery instead of researching them yourself and then getting beaten to Radio/Plastics/Computers/Robotics.

I am not a Space Race guru by any means and it is not the victory type I regularly aim for, so I just ran a quick test of branching the techs to Computers as compared to aiming toward Rocketry and Satellites and I believe the Rocketry path to be significant in getting the ship built faster. Two reasons why:

1. No parts can be built until Apollo Program (Rocketry) is built.
2. Space Elevator can not be built without Satellittes (needs Rocketry tech!).


While it true that computers gives us Labs, there is now a long lag time to get Rocketry and then build Apollo. Of course, this is when one builds the Three Gorges, BUT, and this is the big but, along the other path, at this point you already have Apollow program built and have some cities working SS Castings WHILE you go back and research into computers.

I did find that the AI does get Rifling and Artillery and will trade, but I sat around for many turns waiting because of the Appolo Program Bottle Neck.

Head to head, I got Speace Elevator built in both scenarios, but it took less turns to build in the Rocketry Path although it did not come online until I had all the SS caings built and two other makor components.

I used Ottomans (Warlords), Noble, Large Fractal Land Mass, 11 opponents. I played straight through until the pathways forced a real split of research, then went back and replayed from a save and went the other tech path. Both Rocketry and Computers have a set of similar techs, but the big picture was that getting to Computers took longer because it put me through Industrialism and that path while the Rocketry path is a bit more straightforward.

In the end, one needs to get both paths complete in order to gain all the SS parts unlocked, but one path delays the construction of the Apollo Program and does not allow the building of the Space Elevator anyway because without Rocketry one cannot gain Satellites (Elevator requisite tech).

On the Rocketry first path I lauched SS at 1769 AD )Apollo Program built in mid 1600's) and on the computer first path I did not get Apollo Program built until 1730 AD.

Also: The Ottomans are great for SS races because they build HUGE cities and the underrated Expansive Trait counters that Health hit from Coal plants.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

If you have a reasonable sized empire with several good production cities, the computer first tech path always wins - it may mean that you get the Apollo program later, but that doesn't matter because you get labs earlier and therefore tech faster. And teching faster is the way the race is won.

The launch date is usually - date to research the final required tech + time to build the single remaining spaceship part that this tech enables (in your most powerful production city). The tech race is by far the biggest part of this.

I'm often not the first to build Apollo - but if I am first to computers then I know I am going to win the space race. You catchup on building the spaceship parts quickly - remember all those laboratories you built.

Getting the space elevator might save you 1-2 turns only as the only speedup that counts is the speedup of the final part. Its useful if you have a spare great engineer, or an idle production city, but not much use otherwise.

The other really useful thing to do in a space race rush is to burn two great people for a golden age. Individually they can't do much at this point, but with lots of cities building spaceship parts and a tech race to get all the required techs, this can also save you a couple of turns.

 

[aelf]

InvisibleStalke has a point about labs. But Space Elevator helps more significantly because there are a few expensive parts - SS Docking Bay, SS Engine and SS Stasis Chamber. It also helps all those smaller cities build the Thrusters and Casings, so you can build as many parts as possible at the same time.

drkodos, I think you were following the wrong approach. You should trade for Artillery and Rifling asap, and once you get that them research Rocketry, of course. Build Space Elevator in another production city when building the Space Program (you get bonus with aluminium for the former, so it probably wouldn't take as long as the latter).

I was talking about a tight space race on the higher levels, where racing with the AIs head on might cause you to lose. I'm also assuming that you have a sizeable empire by now, where you have enough high-hammer or semi high-hammer cities to build parts simultaneously with. With labs, Space Elevator and maybe the Dam, you would build all the parts quickly and before long would be waiting for only that last part or two to be completed. For me, I've experienced a tangible difference between the two strategies. Trying to race with the AI to Rocketry has caused me a loss once. Going the Computers/Space Elevator way has allowed me to win most of the time.

 

[Zaimejs]

I'm so angry. I tried out a strategy... just to see if I could win. At about 1860, I put everything into culture to go for a cultural victory. Had an awesome island all to myself (after destorying Alex). And I was way ahead in everything. Then came the stupid space race. Everyone was building stuff... even Caesar who was still cruising the globe in his caravels!!!

I went over to Mansa and spied him a bit... blew up stuff... then my spy got caught. Then Elizabeth took the lead, so I started spying on her. Seemed to be doing pretty well. Just to be sure, I declared war... but that didn't help at all.

one turn away from 3 cities at legendary, and mansa just happens to complete his final module. Don't tell me the game doesn't cheat. One turn? I have two legendary cities, and one one turn away... with a spy ready to land on mansa just to be on the safe side... and he beats me.

WHY?!!!

What a waste of so many more hours.

 

[cabert]

it doesn't cheat, you just lost.
Spies can sabotage a lot of things, like farms, happiness ressources...
all things needed for big cities = big production

Starting to go for cultural in 1860 is late, don't you think?
In fact it's good time to win culturally