Beeline Guilds

[Liegence]

I noticed lately I've done well running Math-first for HG pre-writing because as we know HG very early is really strong (coincidentally, that's when you have to get it, very early, if you want it before the comp on higher difficulties). My last game I took it a two-steps further to grab Guilds pre-writing and no NC with resounding success.

It was a perhaps too-ideal situation: no plantation resources, scant few granary resources (making pottery unattractive), nice Macchu Picchu-ready 2nd city with good production...

What surprised me was how effective it was. Primarily the combined benefits of running Markets, National Treasury, Macchu Picchu and the Trade Post spam. By the time I finished Writing my cities easily whipped up Libraries and the NC shortly after, but I felt like I had tons of cash laying around when usually after NC I am close (or in) the redline. Long term the small science hit didn't seem to affect me at all, and my head start on trade posts was quite nice when I obtained the Free Thought SP. To wit, I did get Krakatoa to help boost my early science.

The affect of having lots of cash let me do some nice Golden Age timings - I bought up AI luxuries and city states for max happiness to build up my happiness Golden Age that I was able to combine with the GA that popped from HG and the Golden Age from Representation as the last Liberty SP (I had to take Meritocracy first to time it) to pop another Golden Age from my GA (GP choice) which resulted in a massive early game Golden Era that I used to settle and build infrastructure like crazy with the hopes that when my Golden Age ended I was back down to a respectable amount of happiness.

Anyone else ever beeline Guilds with surprisingly strong effect? Willing to try this out or consider it over the bread+butter NC early start?

 

[Buccaneer]

Why would you need to Trade Post spam? I believe you are going to hit a wall in growth (most important thing in the game) and likely science.

 

[Keepitsimple]

Only reason for beelining currency is for Petra. Trading posts are best used for puppets.

 

[Liegence]

Good question on how long to Guilds - it's 630 beakers to learn Guilds in a straight beeline with no variation. It's 297 to Philosophy when NC becomes an option. Of course, I dipped Mining/Trapping first to grab my resources.

I'm not a huge metrics person, but here were my end-game stats: I had 2306 bpt in 1890 when I won a science victory (Emperor) - let me add that was with 0 jungle tiles and only 1 observatory, just a note b/c those lend a great deal of science. That was with Sulieman so no Civ tech boost, I also had 0 science religious boosts. I was in the top tech running and entered each era first since Medieval. I can certainly attest that I did not play in anyway to inflate my score and may have sped through the last portion of the game after victory is clear as players are want to do. My largest cities were size 30, 26, 24, 23 & 22 (all self-founded). I only attacked one other Civ - Egypt - which did land me some nice wonders. His sue for peace was not noteworthy, nor were capped cities barring the Capital which ended at size 18.

I'm not sure if that's on par with top tier play but it was one of my best. Once I hit Free Thought science was not an issue, but really I didn't feel a huge drop in science. I think it's worth pointing out that after I had my National Treasury and markets, I moved back into Libriaries/NC - I just prioritized gold first. Note I did get HG in my cap and I did not 100% tp spam - I build farms where it made sense with a goal of working TP's. It is worth noting that Medieval is where Maritime grants +3 Cap/+1 all cities so there's that - you'll have the money to buy in for sure. And waterwheels were prioritized, then markets. I didn't feel like I was slow growing - I said I TP spammed but it wasn't every square is a TP, it was grow into TP's wisely.

I think it's a worthy option to try out if the terrain favors it. I think it's definitely a playable option (market-first, Guild beeline) if you are playing the Netherlands where you have spots to place Polders.

Anyway, something I had a good experience with and wanted to share. TBH, prioritizing NC gets so dull I just had to try a different path and I was very surprised at how well it worked out.

And yes, beelining Currency first for Petra is def amazing if land permits.

 

[Matthew.]

There are plenty of games I won't rush NC (blasphemy!) because honestly it isn't crucial on Emperor and below (and more or less Immortal). If you have Infoaddict you can see your science jump above all the other Civs after NC and stay there for the rest of the game. A good thing if that is your goal, but more importantly it means you are not falling behind if you don't rush it; you just sit alongside the same science as the AI.

But libraries? By the time you finish Guilds, Writing is what? A 3 turn tech? It seems awfully silly to ignore 3 turns of researching Writing just to get to trading posts 3 turns earlier.

Libraries + massive growth is enough to sustain without NC, but ignoring both libraries as well doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

 

[Buccaneer]

Only reason for beelining currency is for Petra. Trading posts are best used for puppets.

Of course, but the poster implied that you would want to build/spam Trading Posts in his cities.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Before patches changed things up, trade post spam was the way to play Civ 5.

But libraries? By the time you finish Guilds, Writing is what? A 3 turn tech?

Is it? How quickly can you get Guilds? What's your research like at that time? I hate it when people post rhetorical questions as if they were strategy and tactics; it's a disease that plagues the Civ 4 S & T forum, as well. Run the numbers; show a game.

 

[chazzycat]

+1 vote for skipping libraries is a bad idea. Guilds is an underrated tech...Machu Piccu is an amazing wonder and it's on the way to machinery. But trading posts are not really worth beelining in general. Maybe if you already had a nice puppet empire and had some other tech boost like messenger of the gods or Mayans so you weren't falling behind in tech...

 

[michaeljhuman]

I am a bit frustrated with how far out Guilds are now. When doing science, I prefer to NOT chop my jungles for the University bonus.

In a game I was working on this weekend, I was so surrounded by jungle, at one point my workers were stalled doing nothing while I waited for Guilds to finish.

I am not sure what the answer is. But chopping jungle early does not seem like it's the answer, and there's stuff that's important to get before Guilds IMO.

If I have to have the resource under the Jungle, I will chop. But sometimes that seems silly. Like with Bananas. A Banana/Jungle tile produces plenty of food, which is good for science AND will produce science once I get University. So why chop it? Hence I sometimes seem to need to rush Guilds just a bit.

I am sure there's many ways of playing, so don't assume my way is correct.

 

[Tabarnak]

Getting Guilds first with 3 or 4x libraries before the NC can be viable. But a detour to NC will neat you Philo for free in fact and get that tech around the same time.

I often get that tech as my first medieval tech(if i can get Machu Pichu) after Philo and NC mainly because skipping NC for too long is never a good idea unless you go for an ICS style game.

But if you plan to build it from your capital, before NC, with 3 or 4 libs to get that tech at a decent rate, then maybe it can be somewhat good. Is it better? I really doubt so.

 

[Matthew.]

Is it? How quickly can you get Guilds? What's your research like at that time? I hate it when people post rhetorical questions as if they were strategy and tactics; it's a disease that plagues the Civ 4 S & T forum, as well. Run the numbers; show a game.

Didn't realize the specific number was that important

By the time you finish beelining those later techs, ancient era techs are a drop in the bucket. I can't run a game right now, but it is 55 beakers for writing. 275 beakers for guilds alone, and hitting up writing beforehand will still be quicker (although it is close). This is assuming you have currency already, likely from Petra. If adding in beakers from mathematics and currency, it is no contest: hitting up writing first is significantly quicker.

Under optimal conditions (no need for pottery/calendar, food-friendly start, science natural wonder, already going for Petra) you are looking at almost breaking even. Realistically, as in nearly all situations, beelining guilds without writing is going to result in significantly lower tech speed.

So I suppose if you get a start with no calendar luxuries, no need for shrine or granary, and have Krakatoa near ya, beelining guilds won't completely mess you over. Now you just need to re-roll the map a thousand times to get that start

 

[Liegence]

I only had to roll once to get that map

Seriously though, if I hadn't had krakatoa, I probably would not have decided to hit guilds before writing. Because writing is so cheap a slight detour would probably not cause delays, and would perhaps build efficiency. I can retry the map from an early save and see how it plays out.

 

[budweiser]

I believe now the key to faster science is a second city right off the bat. I just did a spain game. Too bad it crashed and I lost it but I had 4 faith bought conquistadors at 200AD. This is because I got a second city fast. I did full tradition, beline NC to Education then to guilds + then knights.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Didn't realize the specific number was that important

By the time you finish beelining those later techs, ancient era techs are a drop in the bucket. I can't run a game right now, but it is 55 beakers for writing. 275 beakers for guilds alone, and hitting up writing beforehand will still be quicker (although it is close). This is assuming you have currency already, likely from Petra. If adding in beakers from mathematics and currency, it is no contest: hitting up writing first is significantly quicker.

Under optimal conditions (no need for pottery/calendar, food-friendly start, science natural wonder, already going for Petra) you are looking at almost breaking even. Realistically, as in nearly all situations, beelining guilds without writing is going to result in significantly lower tech speed.

So I suppose if you get a start with no calendar luxuries, no need for shrine or granary, and have Krakatoa near ya, beelining guilds won't completely mess you over. Now you just need to re-roll the map a thousand times to get that start

Much better; thank you.