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Beginner questions..

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by iDagon, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    In SP, you build three warriors to INCREASE THE CHANCES OF WORKER-STEALING. After all, your first two warriors might get killed by an animal, or wander off in the wrong direction.

    Works reasonably on epic. Works poorly on Normal. Once again, settings matter.

    Worker-stealing won't work at all on MP (or it shouldn't). Once again, SETTINGS MATTER.

    But the reason to build 3 warriors on MP is to rush/choke. Humans are smarter than AI, BUT they start with less. So the objectives, depending on whether you're playing AI or human, are different.
     
  2. Nick Carpathia

    Nick Carpathia Unleash the HAARP

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    Whether or not I was decanted from a secret genetics facility in Romania is irrelevant, but you have in your own words never played a game of MP Civ. Stop giving advice. It's all based of faulty assumptions and a poor understanding of Civ's economic model. You think axes come from nowhere? To build an axe, you need to (a) tech mining and BW, and (b) connect copper to your capital, whether from roads or a settler. To build enough axes to take someone's capital within a reasonable timing window, you want to transform weak 3 yield tiles into strong 4-6 yield tiles. Good economic management gives you these things much earlier, and teaches you to transition into the late game.

    I almost always open worker first on MP. Why? Because I am confident enough to handle any kind of early aggression in the first 10-20 turns. Sure, it bites you in those 5% of cases where someone builds 3 warriors and throws them against my capital at T15 and gets a lucky roll, but in the other 95%, it helps you keep up or even surpass others. Because opening with an economy focus gives you flexibility to do anything later, whether it be more economy, or yes, an axe rush.
     
  3. Xpl

    Xpl Chieftain

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    Although if you meet a scout on lets say, turn 6, would you be tempted to rush with your early warrior? I know for civs starting with hunting it's usually wise to lead with a warrior because humans are smarter and see the opportunity to rush in the first 20 turns.
     
  4. iDagon

    iDagon Chieftain

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    I am sure there are no cloning vats in Romania.. :)

    And, I don't mean to offend but Marigold, you seem to make a lot os assumptions.. You said you have no MP experience but you still give advice on it? And about BW.. No comment.. Are you reading BOs from liquipedia or smth? Yes. Early proxy rax (even with bunker) is NOT CHEESE in TvZ mech! Cheese is defined by "a strategy that, when scouted/defended pute you in a big dissatvantage. Like the axe rush in Civ. But the proxy rax is not intended to win, just to make zerg make a lot of lings that you can then easily dispatch with vults. It is just early pressure that is designed to be countered, but gets you an econ advantage! (less drones).

    Did you actually play BW in PGT or ICCup? Or just watch some pro vods and BGH all the way??
     
  5. Nick Carpathia

    Nick Carpathia Unleash the HAARP

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    What I like to do is have a good look at my capital's corners, and the tiles I have. If I can pull off a maximum of 3hpt, that gives me 4 turn warriors. If 4hpt, then 3 turn warriors. If 5hpt, then 2 turn warriors. Corners that have hills a knight's move from my cap are safe corners, as they give me vision 2 turns away, which gives me ~4 turns warning. Corners that have their vision blocked by trees and hills are danger corners, and can give me as little as 2 turns warning. I like to position my starting unit around these danger corners to give me a few more turns warning so I can crash complete a warrior. If I feel really uncomfortable, then I'll pre-build a warrior for a turn so I can switch to it at any time for defense. Another thing you can do if you start with your relevant food tech and mining is build a warrior while working a 3-food tile in your 1st ring while teching bronze working, switch to worker when I grow to size 2, and whip out the worker as soon as you can. It often gives comparable worker builds as a conventional "slow build worker for 8-10 turns", and workers even better when you're spiritual, though again it's situational as not everyone is Ag/Mining.

    As for meeting a scout-start civ, hell yeah, I'd choke them. It's not cheese, I'm not trying to end the game right there and then, and if they're competent, it never will. A warrior has ~20% odds against a warrior in their capital. If I try to take those odds, there's an 80% chance that you will no longer be able to deal damage. On the other hand, if you fortify your warrior on some key tiles (even better if they're on defensive terrain, like forest deers or hill pigs), you're dealing a ton of economic damage as now they need to divert hammers to warriors instead of workers and settlers, they can't improve the tile, and they can't work the tile! Sure, they have an enemy for life, but I can have a 2nd city a good dozen turns before they do and up to 50% more production and commerce. Sure, there's a timing window where they can try to hit me with their 6 warriors, but who cares as my sentries will see them coming and metals or horses will make them irrelevant.
     
  6. TeraHammer

    TeraHammer Prince

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    Common sense is still most important, and trying stuff out to see what works in situations.

    For getting better quickly, I suggest you play on quick speed, so you play more games in a short time span. Especially if you are interested in multiplayer games. Once you can beat noble, go play some wild internet FFAs :-D
     
  7. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    But you still haven't answered the question:

    What if the 3 warriors walk around the tiles you worked and turn them into dust? Instead of stupidly attacking your city?
     
  8. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Ok, then by your definition, there's no such thing as Terran cheese (except SCV rush). And so by my definition, 3-warrior openings in Civ IV is NOT cheese because "it doesn't put you at a big disadvantage." The purpose of the 3-warrior rush is not intended to win, just to make the opponent make a lot of warriors themselves, which you can dispatch easily with axes later. It is just early pressure, that is designed to be countered, but gets you an econ advantage! (because you get to pillage all of their tiles). (sarcasm intended, but then, I'm also partly serious).
     
  9. Nick Carpathia

    Nick Carpathia Unleash the HAARP

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    They won't. In the time it takes for your 3 warriors to arrive, you'll have warriors of your own. You have a production advantage on your own land. Your supply line is 2 tiles away. You can block off important tiles using your own warriors. You guard your own workers and improvements, and force them to make bad trades if they want to deal more damage.

    Will I take damage? Yes, I don't want to be building warriors when I could be working food tiles or building more workers and settlers. Will I be ahead of someone who went 3 warriors without growing and has no way of improving tiles for another 10 turns? Yes, if they're working unimproved hammer tiles, they're going to be behind on food and production.

    Seriously, I'll just shut down someone sending 3 warriors at me, and I will have axes a dozen turns before you bring axes to "counter" my warriors.
     
  10. Inso

    Inso Warlord

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    Its such a shame that a beginner questions thread (which are normally so pleasant and informative) has been cluttered up by MarigoldRan talking absolute nonsense. Hope the OP has managed to get some decent pointers from here regardless.

    I would add though that it might be better to not go straight to immortal from noble, since this is a huge step up. I would say Monarch is a very good level to go to next since it will require learning a few more game concepts but not too much. then once comfortable, head to emperor, etc. Its how I did it and it was a nice smooth transition. Immortal straight away might just result in too much frustration since it is A LOT harder than noble. Best to post a game at any level and get pointers every few turns as others have suggested.
     
  11. iDagon

    iDagon Chieftain

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    @Marigold. Jezus Christ!! First of all, I called your "cheese" when you were talking abount "just build warriors/axes and crush the AIs, don't worry about econ", not this 3 warriors rush. HOWEVER, that dosen't matter.. Your reasoning is very flawed! The proxy rax is not the same as this warrior rush! Think about it! In BW you allready need the rax, you allready need some (1-3) marines for some defence and the proxy DOES NOT SLOW YOU DOWN allmost at all.. Just a little bit of mining time and maybe a couple of minerals if you build the bunker and cancel after lings pop.

    In Civ, you would sacrifice a lot of hammers at the begining on warriors, that could be a worker/settler. Plus, the defender's advantage is SO MUCH LARGER in Civ because of 1 sqare/ turn movment it allmost dosen't make sense to me. The other guy can make a worker and still be able to churn out warriors in tine to defend (also chop more out if bronzeW).
    Also, factor barbs. If you have 3 warriors and I have 3 warriors, but you have them at my front door you have to worry about barbs = more warriors for you..

     
  12. iDagon

    iDagon Chieftain

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    @Inso

    Don't worry.. I did. Especially at the beggining of the thread before all this nonsense.. And anyway, you can learn smth new from everything, so it's ok.. :)
     
  13. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Ok. When did 8-rax NOT slow you down? You have less scvs than a standard opening.

    EDIT: Did you just write: "In BW you allready need the rax, you allready need some (1-3) marines for some defence and the proxy DOES NOT SLOW YOU DOWN allmost at all"

    So I guess you agree?

    And in Civ IV, you'll need warriors anyways for barbs. Yes, attacking their cities is difficult with warriors. That's why you go after their plain tiles. Which, btw, has a 0% defense bonus.
     
  14. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    And you're a dirtbag.
     
  15. iDagon

    iDagon Chieftain

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    @ Marigold

    I don' know if you just don't understand what I am saying or ar you just trying to trolololol me..
    I'm guessing a bit of both.. So, yeah.. There is nothing more to discuss..
     

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