Beginning Tech Plan

[ElephantU]

(This thread is a transfer from the GOTM37 Spoiler thread discussion about Tech Plans.)

Do you make a Beginning Tech Plan?

Here's one I'm working with at the moment:

-(1)Bronze: the first is a quickie, this helps for PRBing 2nd row, as well as a better city defender;
-(2)Alph: sets up all the "wisdom" techs;
-(3)CerBur: allows Temples, but mostly cause CodeLaw hidden;
-(4)CodeLaw: last before -
-(5)MONARCHY: govmt change, higher Sci, less C&W, more cities;
-(6)Write: PRB 3rd row, start building Dips to explore and Library in SSC;
-(7)Curr: then Marketplaces; sets up:
-(8)TRADE: for MarcoPolo (my preferred first WoW) AND caravans (several pre-started Settlers switch over);
-(9)Map: get ships in the water and trade maps (sometimes get this as first tech from MarcoPolo, allowing switch);
-(10)Myst: 2nd citizen content from Temples, Oracle (?), and prep for Philos;
-(11)Lit: great to trade to AIs;
-(12)REP: hopefully ready to WLTCD; otherwise Mas for Cst or Pot for HG;
-(13)PHIL+(or 14th if I don't have something else to change the following choices, Bank/Horse).

This was the "plan"; when I built Marco Polo during #9 I took Map and Myst from the AI and started Lit, then I took Pottery as #12 for HG so that after finishing Lit I can go right on to Philosophy.

Needless to say, this is for an Early Landing game, which does not permit opening Huts. The other situation which can affect a Tech Plan is when playing a Scenario, the "hidden" techs are accessible as options.

The above choices lean towards fast growth via ICS style start, then heavy tech progress through trade and city research. A game with Huts would make Horse or earlier Write worth considering. A game aimed at Conquest would make Wheel and PolyTheism worth pursuing earlier.

Discussion?

 

[A+ombomb]

I have a different tech plan depending on how big my initial island is, and if another civ is on my island.

Small island -

(1) alphabet
(2) horseback riding (explore)
(3) code of laws
(4) burial
(5) monarchy
(6) map making
(7) bronze working
(8) currency
(9) trade
(10) mysticism
(11) polytheism
(12) writing
(13) literacy
(14) philosophy
(15) monotheism

This is geared towards heavy expansion onto as many islands as possible as quickly as possible, with the help of mike's to keep the roudy citizens in check.

Large island -

(1) alph
(2) code of laws
(3) writing
(4) bronze working
(5) literacy
(6) republic
(7) currency
(8) trade
(9) mapmaking
(10) horsebackriding (if not earlier, iff one of the previous advances is disallowed at the given placement)
(11) polytheism
(12) philosophy (after polytheism since the free tech then counts for more light bulbs)
(13) monotheism

This start is an effort to build up one super city with a vast amount of small cities around it (not interfering only with the main super city). The small cities all produce extensive caravans to trade to with the main city, or rehome to it and trade overseas for many huge trade routes.

Island with company-

(1) alphabet
(2) code of laws
(3) horseback riding
(4) ceremonial
(5) monarchy
(6) mysticism
(7) polytheism
(8) philosophy
(9) monotheism
(10) bronze working
(11) currency
(12) trade

This is built to still ecourage reasonable growth with fast monarchy, mike's, but emphasize the early elephants and crusaders to dominate the early game wars (I always clear out my island asap - I would rather trade overseas and computers tend to be a huge nuissance if left unchecked when going for space landings).

 

[ElephantU]

Interesting: in all of those, you left out Bronze (assuming you were not getting it as a freebie starting tech). For the first one, you could make Horse first, then Alph and CoL, which gives you an earlier 2nd row unit for PRBing. I do agree that if the starting island turns out to be small, Map should follow Monarchy.

My preference for early explorers is two Warriors instead of one Horse. I can go in two directions at the same time, and if I lose one to a Barb I still have the other. The only drawback is the loss of the second move, to pull back from something dangerous, but I had not found that as useful (I often found "something dangerous" on the SECOND of the two moves anyway...) so I put Horse on my bypass-if-possible list.

Your second list, the Early Republic, should really have Rep as #6 if you are not playing a Scenario. There has to be one off-tech in there somewhere - I usually make it Bronze so I can get the second PRB row and shoot for Trade after the government change, or CerBur for Temples. I tried the Early Republic in a couple Early Landing games last year and did not like it: the loss of shields to support units, the extra food for Settlers, the loss of martial law and earlier need for Temples (which is another off-path tech), and the delay for an extra tech before getting out of Despotism all combined to discourage me. If the island is large, by your reasoning, there could be another civ on it, so shooting for Monarchy could allow demanding tribute as well.

I like your third Early Conquest tech plan, but not the reasoning behind it. If there is another civ on your island, consider pacifying them and using them to get the extra Trade Route bonuses. Once you get to RR and SuperHighways these can really power an SSC into the 1000-2000 beaker range.

 

[A+ombomb]

If you only take huts on the first move then you can always pullback, i make it a habit to do that. Usually nothing else can take out a horse. I get bronzeworking right after trade on large islands where I am alone, for colosus, but otherwise I don't eve build that wonder so I have no reason to get the advance - I use horsemen to defend with, too, since then I don't necessarily need to defend every city (Its pretty easy to gift for peace with all computers, so only need to deal with legions which can't take over a city before a horseman can react and move to the city in question).

You mentioned how you disliked losing shields to support - I completely agree, that is why I use my horsemen strategy. By using horsemen you only need 1/2 the support or less, by strategically placing them to cover all your bases.

The other critical point for making the republic work is city massing. When I playing a game like game #2, all my cities are within 2 squares of each other, minus my super city that I focus all my trade through which has no interference. I try to make all my cities on grassland without shields, to maximize shield production (gaining the free shield from base), and I generally try to have many of my cities at the very far reaches of the island for maximizing that islands game score for later in the game.

As for keeping the citizens in order, since I am making large amounts of cities instead of building up cities, that is never any issue (mike's is often my first or second wonder, built before 1AD). Also, the republic is less corrupt, so lots of expanding won't tack on extra unhappy citizens nearly as quickly as a monarchy.

You will see in my save points in gotm 37, I think I make very good use of a speedy republic, with no support issues at all, allowing for some incredible trade routes and fast teching in the very early going. I really love snagging fast mobile warfare, since you immediately can run over the entire world with minimal units, no losses, and you no longer need to worry about defending 90% of your cities (no barbs).

There are three big reasons why I dislike pacifying nearby civs. First, fast elephant/crusader means that with a minimal army and good tactics I can expand as quickly or more quickly than I would if no one was on my island, often providing a few key techs along the way (though sometimes worthless techs too, which is somewhat annoying).
Secondly, those huge trade routes are nice, but until you have railroads it often takes longer to land them in turns than it would if you went overseas with the aid of magellan. Also, the overseas traderoutes I have are virtually *always* maxed out, and it fills my beakers to max in one shot. Much later it might be necessary to have a large 2000 trade route to fill up the beakers, but by then civs will always be frisky and attacking since you will be spacebound, which brings me to #3.
Thirdly, when civs are on your own island in the spacerace, they always just get to fundamentalism and start massing a zillion guys to swamp you. Its just much more difficult to deal with when they are on your island, whereas overseas conflicts I find to be a walk in the park. If I have to deal with a civ on my island, I am probably not expanding to my maximum potential and thus my gotm score would suffer.

 

[ElephantU]

You must have modded RULES.TXT to get Bronze after Trade; in the default setup Bronze is required for Currency, which is required for Trade, unless you get Currency from a Hut or AI.

ICS does seem to work better with a quicker Republic, as long as the Barbs or neighbor AIs don't demand a serious military.

And you are right about the TR to neighboring AI city depending on RR and SuperHighways. Once those are in, though, the SSC becomes an amazing powerhouse. You don't have to keep ALL the AI cities on your continent, though...

 

[A+ombomb]

Yes I do normally get bronze working, I just neglected to have it on my list but I will do that. I think thats the missing tech in the republic tech path, since republic can't straight tech.

 

[ElephantU]

Here's a Tech Path for Early Conquest:

-(1) Horse: explore fast and PRB 2nd row;
-(2) CerBur: Temples, but mostly cause Alp as #2 hides Cer&CoL for #3;
-(3) Alph: "wisdom" techs, particularly:
-(4) CodeLaws: prep for:
-(5) MONARCHY: improve govmt, trade specials, less C&W, more cities;
-(6) POLYTHEISM=ELEPHANTS;
-(7) Myst: Temples 2nd content, Oracle (?);
-(8) Write: Dips & Libraries (not that we care...), PRB 3rd row;
-(9) Literacy: GreatLibrary(?), prep for:
-(10) Philosophy! and freebie:
-(11) MONOTHEISM: Mikes Chapel, Cathedrals, and CRUSADERS;
-(12) Mapmaking: for ships and map trades.
Inserting Map in there somewhere after Monarchy would require an extra off-tech as well, but that might be necessary if the starting island is small. Next you could shoot for Feudalism for SunTzu or Trade to get Marco Polo for maps and caravans for delivery bonuses and Wonder building, or just shut research down (the AI tends to follow the human players Tax/Sci/Lux settings) and rampage.

 

[la fayette]

I disagree with this one

because MARCO (therefore Trade) is VERY precious for early conquest on almost any map

(... unless black-clicking manages to replace it )

 

[ElephantU]

so Monarchy-Trade-PT-MT, or Monarchy-PT-Trade-MT?

 

[A+ombomb]

Early conquest is never worth it, in my opinion, even in gotm. It seems there is always room for better score with more years than the earliest possible conquest. When I say island with company, I am assuming that there is at least one civ not on my island, and my shortterm goal is only to take out what is on my island, therefore I have no use for an early marco polo's embassy. On maps where I am alone, I always have trade earlier and I usually snag the embassy unless I find someone with a scout trieme right away, then I might switch that wonder over to the hanging gardens or mike's chapel.

I guess the exception would be if all civs were so close by that you could conquer them before a republic or democracy could even be formed (for early growth via celebration, which is the main reason I feel earliest possible conquest is inferior for scoring). However, be this the case then there would also be no real use for marco, since scouts could easily suffice for finding all civs.

 

[ElephantU]

I've only played a few where the main continent has been so large that most or all civs are on it. In those cases I often found one civ blocking a narrow point leading to other civs, so I would agree with Lafayette that Marco Polo is valuable for early contact via map exchange. In most other cases several are on different continents, and if the map is medium or large I have found it impossible to discover them all in reasonable time.

 

[Old n Slow]

I have yet to truly perform early conquest (or early anything I reckon.) but…I’m wondering about the extra techs suggested towards Mono.

Given monarchy at tech#5, we can do WC,[off tech, say Map], Feud, & Chiv. This I think is somewhat better than Monopoly, WC, [off tech, say poly], BW, & IW. Why to either? If one gets the great satisfaction of campaigning over rough terrain, Vet Eles & Vet Crux become less appealing. Marching over trees and hills saps the mobility strength of those units and they defend…like paper. Elephant’s war path looks lgreat over the rolling grasslands, but at the tree line…

Which makes the knight (and a pike for occasional defense) the go to all around unit. One can thrust knights fearlessly into the unknown, confident that they have just about the best defense available for the time, and max mobility and quality offense.

Downside -- Elephant’s suggested path allows the option to bail for science without any serious lag whereas the drive for knights loses a bunch of techs. Also with Elephant’s suggested path (I might start with CB (and often do) because the “off-tech” might make a difference) one has the option of choosing Poly as tech #3 (greatly delaying Monarchy to be sure, but if hostile contact occurs right away, horses may not have enough punch if the first unit seen is an archer.)

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by ElephantU
so Monarchy-Trade-PT-MT, or Monarchy-PT-Trade-MT?

My choice would be Mon-Trade-PT-MT
(since Trade is not only good for Marco, but also for a few early deliveries offshore in order to help build up the war treasury)

 

[Archer 007]

Horseback, Bronze, then a beeline to Monarchy.

 

[ElephantU]

If you start with Horse, your next options are Alph/CerBur/Wheel. If you take Alph you do not get Cer or CoL in the third round. If you take CerBur you can go Alp-CoL and get Monarchy as fifth. But if you put Bronze third after CerBur, you can do Alp-CoL fourth and fifth but you do not get Mon as an option on the sixth, so you have to wait till the seventh round. You could take Currency on the sixth, Monarchy on the seventh, and Trade on the eighth, though.

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by la fayette


My choice would be Mon-Trade-PT-MT

So that would be:
Bro-Alp-Cer-CoL-MON-Cur-TRA-Hor-PT-Mys-Wri-Lit-Phi-MT-(Map?)

It works pretty well if we leave Map out, but unless you are on one big continent Map is going to be necessary, probably after Marco Polo goes in. So they we could do:

-TRA-Map-Hor-Mys-PT-Wri-Lit-Phi-MT

How's that?

The next three could then be -War-Feud-Chiv...

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by ElephantU


unless you are on one big continent Map is going to be necessary, probably after Marco Polo goes in. So they we could do:

-TRA-Map-Hor-Mys-PT-Wri-Lit-Phi-MT

How's that?

= lovely !

But what happens usually is that someone else has discovered Map when I finish building Marco and I trade for it at once.

 

[ElephantU]

Of course, but even traded-for techs increase the cost of the next tech and change what is offered on the list.

I would write that as:
-TRA-(Map)-Hor-...

With Marco Polo I often find that all of the first list of options (Alp/Bro/Cer/Hor/Mas/Pot/War) are available from AI along with most of the second generation (Wri/Map/Cur/Mys/Whe/Cst/Iro), so you could pick up three or four pretty easily. Sometimes Lit, Math and PT are available too.

 

[la fayette]

I agree

 

[mardukes]

The thing with the advances where they are 1, 2 or 3 and only show up on that cycle, those numbers don't appear to be in the text file. Is it based on the order of the list? Is it just known by experience?