Being the scapegoat's friend

[Qoma]

I'm in an interesting situation in my current game. Portugal, Huge, Pangaea, Immortal, Epic. Shooting for a culture vic. Close to 45-50 turns ago, Arabia and I re-upped our DoF status - we've been friends most of the game. After a short war to take Boudicca's cap (I had nowhere much to expand to and she was weak, surprise), he invited me to another war against the Inca after about a dozen other invites (being surrounded by the Huns, Zulus, and Aztecs has really spurred that on). I haphazardly agreed, though it did pay off in a way, as Pachapatooey (jokes) gave me a city for nothing, which I then sold to my friend Arabia for a hefty, hefty sum.

Fast forward to now - about 1520 AD. I'm well out of that war, though he's still at war with the Inca. Most of the world has denounced him, and one more war will get me scapegoat status as well (I tested that at one point, hah). I am already on thin ice diplomatically. Another powerful long-time friend of mine, Poland, asks me to denounce Arabia. If I refuse, Poland will turn around and denounce me, breaking my ties to him. This is about at turn 51 since Arabia and I last DoF'ed, but apparently it's still "too soon" since we were friends - if I denounce him as Poland asks, the world then hates me for denouncing a friend. So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Fast forward another 15ish turns to about 1560 AD, and Arabia will choose Autocracy, Poland will choose Order, and I plan to go Freedom. (This is partly a forced choice - I haven't played Freedom yet and I promised myself that I would be going Freedom in this game, good or bad, hehe).

Trying to stay his friend does have a few benefits at least... He's actually also the culture leader, so trying to get open borders and trade routes to him is going to be important for me. But, this all may fall apart once I shift to Freedom anyway...

So, long story short... what do you do when you end up being longtime friends with the civ that everyone decides to pile on with denunciations? Do you backstab, and face the consequences? If you're already in a tough spot with few friends due to some poor decisions, do you stand by his side... and then face those consequences?

I've attached a save at 1520 AD, in case anyone's interested. (It was 2.5 mb, and the max save size appears to be 2 mb on this forum, so I had to RAR it - you'll have to open it up before you can use it)

 

[Arachnofiend]

I haven't checked out your save but it sounds like Arabia is running away with it. If I were you I would join Arabia. Unfortunately, to do this you're going to have to go Autocracy; without it, you're just going to be another target for good ol' Harun. Fortunately you can jump in on his wars and reap the benefits of that sweet, sweet Cult of Personality bonus.

If you absolutely must go Freedom then you're abandoning any hopes of good diplomacy with the powers. Fortunately you can concert tour via DOW if you find this is necessary to get into the AI's borders (just make sure you can do it in one turn).

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Are you trying to stay peaceful? Generally in this situation, when I find that my only good friend is the evil world warmonger, I just join him and go for a predatory CV. Pick out the civs with the most wonders and tourism and get your warmongering buddy Harun to help you target them. If you steal enough works and wonders you can get your tourism high enough that open borders just aren't as important anymore. Use diplomats, make your religion the world religion and you can make up for the lack of open borders.

Of course in this situation it'd probably be better to adopt autocracy to facilitate your new tactic and keep your friend happy but Freedom is good for both war and tourism too. If you have enough positive modifiers (a lot of wars against common enemies works to keep that modifier strong) you should be able to get Harun to overlook your differing ideologies, at least for a while.

 

[Qoma]

For sure, for sure. I'm not necessarily even looking for advice on my specific game, I was just meaning to use it as an example - not a "how do I win this game", but a, "what would you guys do if you were friends with the guy everyone hates"?

 

[docbud]

In my current game (as Babylon), I'm best friends with Mongolia. Everyone in the world hates him, but I was friends with him before that. And he does have the largest military, and he is my neighbor.

In order for the other civs to attack him, they need to go through my territory, and for him to get to them, the same thing.

And, I've always found him trustworthy and loyal.

Plus, I did it to annoy the other civs

 

[ilik]

Toughie.......

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

In my current game (as Babylon), I'm best friends with Mongolia. Everyone in the world hates him, but I was friends with him before that. And he does have the largest military, and he is my neighbor.

In order for the other civs to attack him, they need to go through my territory, and for him to get to them, the same thing.

And, I've always found him trustworthy and loyal.

Plus, I did it to annoy the other civs

I had the same set up with Ghengis once. It worked out great we were friends for like 3000 years. He can actually be pretty loyal. Then near the end of the game he wiped out the last of the other civs and turned on me. It was kind of predictable. Made for a fun war.

I was going for a CV (preBNW) and had made the crazy decision to go autocracy just to do something different. I had just finished autocracy so I had the finisher buff. It was great using my little army to wipe out his forces. I wound up winning the CV before the war really went anywhere though.

Harald, Askia, and Nobunaga can be like that too. Loyal warmongers. In fact I'm always excited to meet Harald because I've had a lot of good experiences with him as an ally.