Best alternative to Civ: Fallen Enchantress or Endless Space?

Thanks!

Kael has been working on a better way of handling the whole champion system and I was talking to Soren and he had some really good ideas too. I don't want to do any spoilers but one of the best concepts in Civ IV (And something we should do more in our games) is the idea that civilizations should feel like they're growing in lots of different areas and those areas we choose to grow them in result in interesting choices.

Now, as for the book sequel. The first one has sold pretty well and RH wants a sequel. Maybe someday. ;)

Frogboy! How the hell are ya?
 
Distant Worlds and Eador:Genesis (found on GOG) are far better options than either Endless Space or Fallen Enchantress, both of which are mediocre at best.

There's far more depth and "soul" in Distant Worlds (though you need the expansions) than in Endless Space. It's just a deeper and better gaming experience all the way around. The only reason not to get DW is the price...but in this case you get what you pay for.

Eador:Genesis is simply a better fantasy game than Fallen Enchantress. It was coded by one guy and was released in Russia in 2009 and just recently in the USA. As a result, documentation and aesthetic values are lacking in Eador. It looks old and thank goodness there's a decent tutorial because the manual is in Russian. But the strategy, challenge and addictiveness of Eador is easily superior to FE. It's a combination of HOMM and AoW and captures the best of both of those games. This is the opposite of DW vs. ES - Eador is far less expensive ($5.99 vs $40) than FE and you get a better game to boot. In this case, you get the best of both worlds.
 
Wow, Eador:Genesis looks intriguing. I used to play HOMM back in the day, and Warlords, and have played WoW, so the elements of that game all look really cool. Thanks for the first mention in this thread.

Cheers.
 
Distant Worlds and Eador:Genesis (found on GOG) are far better options than either Endless Space or Fallen Enchantress, both of which are mediocre at best.

There's far more depth and "soul" in Distant Worlds (though you need the expansions) than in Endless Space. It's just a deeper and better gaming experience all the way around. The only reason not to get DW is the price...but in this case you get what you pay for.

I spent a weekend with Endless Space, and I wonder if the phrase "Be careful what you wish for" is appropriate. Yes, everyone makes MOO2 comparisons - but I wonder if the issue isn't so much that it's not MOO2 is that it's trying too hard to be. Releasing a reskinned MOO2 today would be like releasing Civ II with better graphics.

Even leaving aside such things as the fact that, by removing the MOO2 combat system, ES has gutted the heart of a major aspect of the game (ship design and combat itself), there are simply game design decisions made with MOO2 that wouldn't be made today.

Someone else noted that, unlike Civ V, there's only one best route to victory and it's independent of which race you play, that there's no option to play tall, etc. This was true of the Master of Orion games. It was true of all but the most recent Civ games, and those are arguable. Civ I didn't even have different traits for its different civs, and different civs weren't designed to be better-suited to different victory conditions or styles of play until Civ V. And nowadays we do have games like Distant Worlds which offer much more meaningful choices in that regard, so ES is going to fall short.

I quite liked ES playing it over a weekend without having played a space 4x game for a while; but when I first tried it, it was immediately after playing Distant Worlds, and that inevitably soured my impressions by comparison.
 
While we are on space games - and totally not 4x - having a blast with Faster Than Light just now. Currently 1/2 price on GoG. Note - not a deep exploration game - an insane Rogue style game - just the space discussions above made me think of it :dubious:
 
As Mr. Burns might say, "Exccceellllent!"

The last couple of years have been very good for strategy gamers. And we've got 2 4X games in development ourselves.

Yes! GalCivthreeeeeE! I've waited a long time for it, Mr Wardell. :goodjob:
 
While we are on space games - and totally not 4x - having a blast with Faster Than Light just now. Currently 1/2 price on GoG. Note - not a deep exploration game - an insane Rogue style game - just the space discussions above made me think of it :dubious:

Keep the ideas coming. Having a look at this too. I'm also a fan of Star Trek :D

BTW everyone: For Eador:Genesis, have a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLR_hS9YSrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4CG-lFnfTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKCYuhUHC3Y

Three walkthrough videos by someone trying out the game, who is familiar with it, but not too familiar :). You'll get an idea of how everything works, and how the game plays. Don't watch if you want to learn everything from the game itself though.

Cheers.
 
Now I'm debating on weather to pick up Distant Worlds or GalCiv2. Thinking I'll go with Distant Worlds since it's rarely on sale and pick up GalCiv2 next steam sale.
 
If you just do downloads, Distant Worlds is now only:

25.99 + 15.99 + 15.99 => 57.97

I think I may well get DW and Eador coming to a total of 57.97 + 5.99 => 63.96 for 2 great games.

Cheers.
 
Now I'm debating on weather to pick up Distant Worlds or GalCiv2. Thinking I'll go with Distant Worlds since it's rarely on sale and pick up GalCiv2 next steam sale.

This one is easy - go with DW. GalCiv2 is dull as dishwater.
 
GalCiv2 is dull as dishwater.

Not quite. GalCiv2 is to DW as Civilization is to Europa Universalis III...they're completely different games.
 
It is my opinion that Endless Space lacks a certain freedom of movement. Ship movement feels too confined on their singular pathways between solar systems...I knew what I had purchased but I secretly wished it could have turned out more like the Final Frontier mod from Civ4 BTS.
 
What game out there do you guys think have the best diplomacy system? It seems to be hard part to AI for a game which is understandable but it is still the one feature I wish could be better in games. I don't know if anyone ever played the browser game Hundred Years War but it was pretty much a setting without AI so the diplomacy they had like marriages to extend your line which kinda put marriage alliances into the game, were really nice I thought. It was a long time ago and then they started charging money to play but I have been looking for a similar game ever since.
 
My, frogboy makes an appearance and announces plans for an expansion to Fallen Enchantress. How about that?

Fallen Enchantress with the patches is a very good experience, particularly early game. The closest game that comes close to the tenseness of the early game is Alpha Centauri (1999). Civ, with the exception of Civ 4 with raging barbarians and few civs on a larger map comes close. Even on that setting, Fallen Enchantress give a more compelling early game.

Fallen Enchantress is not Civ, it is more in common with Age of Wonders, but it will have you OMTing if you get into DnD type fantasy.

The other game, I am not sure of.
 
What game out there do you guys think have the best diplomacy system? It seems to be hard part to AI for a game which is understandable but it is still the one feature I wish could be better in games. I don't know if anyone ever played the browser game Hundred Years War but it was pretty much a setting without AI so the diplomacy they had like marriages to extend your line which kinda put marriage alliances into the game, were really nice I thought. It was a long time ago and then they started charging money to play but I have been looking for a similar game ever since.

FE is not quite that complex. the diplo is passable, but not on that order of grandness that all us 4x fans crave.

That said, the original War of Magic which was Fallen Enchantress' buggy predecessor had a lineage system where your leader could have kids and they became units in the game and you could arrange marriages for diplomacy. That may make it into a future expac I am guessing.
 
What game out there do you guys think have the best diplomacy system? It seems to be hard part to AI for a game which is understandable but it is still the one feature I wish could be better in games. I don't know if anyone ever played the browser game Hundred Years War but it was pretty much a setting without AI so the diplomacy they had like marriages to extend your line which kinda put marriage alliances into the game, were really nice I thought. It was a long time ago and then they started charging money to play but I have been looking for a similar game ever since.

Quite frankly ... Civ V. As much hate as the AI gets, and despite issues with implementation (among them the "trade anything for gold" issue) the diplomacy system Civ V uses is rather innovative and departs from the trade screen of previous Civs and most strategy games in favour of diplomatic relations that are based largely on tripartite relations. It makes it actually feel as though you're interacting with other players with their own alliances, enemies and interests.

The downside is, it's a lot more complex than a typical modifier-based system, and AIs are notoriously weak at handling those. Which is probably why Civ V AI failings in diplomacy get so much flak. But it's certainly the best diplomacy system I'm familiar with.

As for other games, Distant Worlds has quite involved diplomacy, but mostly in its more detailed implementation of economics (trade isn't automatically halted by empires at war; there's a sanction system that allows you to control trade restrictions with hostile powers) . However, the fact that you can have multiracial populations on planets, and immigration and emigration from other empires (as well as ways to set immigration controls), adds a level of detail to diplomatic relations: your reputation with other empires is affected by how you treat their conspecifics.

The Total War games have family trees and a diplomatic marriage system, as well as the ability to exchange hostages (underage members of your lineage) in exchange for favours.

However, TW diplomacy is somewhat rudimentary - the only real way to influence relations is to initiate trade agreements, which are binary and automated (you don't get to set what resources are traded). There aren't many diplomatic agreements you can make (basically, military access or alliance), and vassalage while nice in theory appears to be largely pointless in practice (only a very weak state will agree to be a vassal, by which point you might as well conquer them anyway, particularly since you'll do a better job of protecting the province than the AI. Civ IV's vassalage system had the same issue; I'm not aware of a game that's resolved it). There are also flaws in both AI and implementation (for instance, if another power breaks off an agreement with you rather than vice versa, you still take the diplomatic penalty - with them and with other powers - for not honouring an agreement. Civ V used to do this before patching, and that caused a lot of complaints too). There is a religion system that has significant effects on diplomacy, and with the most recent DLC for Shogun 2 there are clans with all three of the game's religions to choose from, however managing this is essentially outside the player's control.

The AI is programmed with set religions and will never change, even if you manage to convert 100% of their populace to a different religion, and so you have no way of influencing diplomacy through religion other than by changing your own.

And because of the way TW games work, mostly you want diplomacy as a means of keeping certain powers in line while you beat up everyone else, not as a way of forming meaningful long-term relationships. As such the diplo system inherently lacks character - it feels like a game mechanic rather than a way of usefully interacting with other powers. On the plus side, it generally does a good job of representing tripartite and other multipartite relations - you do need to track who's allied with who carefully, as allies of your enemies will be very inclined to declare war on you in turn.
 
It is my opinion that Endless Space lacks a certain freedom of movement. Ship movement feels too confined on their singular pathways between solar systems...I knew what I had purchased but I secretly wished it could have turned out more like the Final Frontier mod from Civ4 BTS.

There's a tech not far into the bottom tree that allows you to move without the strings.
 
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