Best alternative to Civ: Fallen Enchantress or Endless Space?

[charon2112]

Quite frankly ... Civ V. As much hate as the AI gets, and despite issues with implementation (among them the "trade anything for gold" issue) the diplomacy system Civ V uses is rather innovative and departs from the trade screen of previous Civs and most strategy games in favour of diplomatic relations that are based largely on tripartite relations. It makes it actually feel as though you're interacting with other players with their own alliances, enemies and interests.

The downside is, it's a lot more complex than a typical modifier-based system, and AIs are notoriously weak at handling those. Which is probably why Civ V AI failings in diplomacy get so much flak. But it's certainly the best diplomacy system I'm familiar with.

As for other games, Distant Worlds has quite involved diplomacy, but mostly in its more detailed implementation of economics (trade isn't automatically halted by empires at war; there's a sanction system that allows you to control trade restrictions with hostile powers) . However, the fact that you can have multiracial populations on planets, and immigration and emigration from other empires (as well as ways to set immigration controls), adds a level of detail to diplomatic relations: your reputation with other empires is affected by how you treat their conspecifics.

The Total War games have family trees and a diplomatic marriage system, as well as the ability to exchange hostages (underage members of your lineage) in exchange for favours.

However, TW diplomacy is somewhat rudimentary - the only real way to influence relations is to initiate trade agreements, which are binary and automated (you don't get to set what resources are traded). There aren't many diplomatic agreements you can make (basically, military access or alliance), and vassalage while nice in theory appears to be largely pointless in practice (only a very weak state will agree to be a vassal, by which point you might as well conquer them anyway, particularly since you'll do a better job of protecting the province than the AI. Civ IV's vassalage system had the same issue; I'm not aware of a game that's resolved it). There are also flaws in both AI and implementation (for instance, if another power breaks off an agreement with you rather than vice versa, you still take the diplomatic penalty - with them and with other powers - for not honouring an agreement. Civ V used to do this before patching, and that caused a lot of complaints too). There is a religion system that has significant effects on diplomacy, and with the most recent DLC for Shogun 2 there are clans with all three of the game's religions to choose from, however managing this is essentially outside the player's control.

The AI is programmed with set religions and will never change, even if you manage to convert 100% of their populace to a different religion, and so you have no way of influencing diplomacy through religion other than by changing your own.

And because of the way TW games work, mostly you want diplomacy as a means of keeping certain powers in line while you beat up everyone else, not as a way of forming meaningful long-term relationships. As such the diplo system inherently lacks character - it feels like a game mechanic rather than a way of usefully interacting with other powers. On the plus side, it generally does a good job of representing tripartite and other multipartite relations - you do need to track who's allied with who carefully, as allies of your enemies will be very inclined to declare war on you in turn.

As of the G&K expansion, I've been pretty impressed with Civ V diplomacy also.

 

[Quueg]

What game out there do you guys think have the best diplomacy system?

Crusader Kings II, Europa Universalis III, Victoria II - and pretty much any other Paradox game.

 

[bc1]

Plus it might be argued that Paradox games have a better AI

 

[oman19]

Been eharing good things about Crusader Kings II. After I give DW's a good spin maybe I'll pick it up.

Edit: Yikes....On sale for 75% off. Just might have to pick it up on steam.

 

[Ellye]

Crusader Kings II is my favorite strategy game, personally. Europa Universalis III is also great, I can't wait for EU4.

Anyway, earlier on in this thread I complained about Endless Space patching mentality. Well, I guess I'll need to eat my hat about that, as it just had two great patches that vastly improved the game.

 

[oman19]

Loving Crusader Kings II!!!!!!!!!!! Picked up Distant Worlds as well but I need to spend some more time with it to get the hang of it.

 

[alysenne]

Wow, -75% steam sale on CKII. I love Paradox games. Thanks so much for the tip!

As for the topic, I preferred Endless Space. It's a solid space 4x game. I had some complaints about it when I was playing, but I heard that many were fixed in patches.

Fallen Enchantress...It's weird. By its description, you'd think it would be so awesome, but I don't know. I couldn't get that engrossed by it. None of that 'just one more turn' feeling that you typically get from strategy games. But I do know people who really like it, so I would recommend trying it as well.

Frankly, there aren't enough good grand strategy games and when any decent one comes along, you have to play it.

 

[PhilBowles]

Loving Crusader Kings II!!!!!!!!!!! Picked up Distant Worlds as well but I need to spend some more time with it to get the hang of it.

CKII looks good, but I've been a little put off by the fact that it seems to be a sandbox game; I tend to prefer strategy games with defined win conditions (which is why I own but have never got round to playing EUIII).

 

[oman19]

CKII looks good, but I've been a little put off by the fact that it seems to be a sandbox game; I tend to prefer strategy games with defined win conditions (which is why I own but have never got round to playing EUIII).

I must say it is one of the things that makes it unique and not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing. I usually like having some type of defined winning conditions and not having anything usually would bug me but CKII helps me get by with the fact they give you a score at the end so it kind of let's me compete with myself. I've yet to finish a game so I'm not sure if it saves your leaderboard or anything but it might be fun to see how high of scores I can get.

Back to the OP Fallen Enchantress is -33% on steam for $26.79. It is ALSO part of an AWESOME Stardock bundle that includes Fallen Enchantress, Demigod, Galactic Civilizations I: Ultimate Editions, Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition, Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion, The Political Machine 2012. All 6 for $49.99

 

[alysenne]

Part of the appeal of a sandbox game is that you set the victory conditions, but I understand. It feels different when there are hardcoded victory conditions to aim for.

I can't finish most paradox games because they go on for so long. I usually play for days (probably about as long as a Civ5 game would last), then restart.

 

[Canox]

I can really recommend Fallen Enchantress. Already 33hours played on Steam and still counting. Got my first win on normal and trying out new heros and stuff. I like to combo of the Might&Magic thing ("creeping", items, lvling of heroes) and the Civ part (city building, research). At least it's something refreshing and new. Waiting for the next DLC or exp for Civ5 ...

 

[Akka]

Real time is not for real thinking strategy, but finger twitch players who are too impatient.

Also not turn-based, although it's the only real-time game out there that matches or exceeds the complexity of turn-based strategy options.

Neither of you have played any Paradox game, it seems

 

[Quueg]

I can really recommend Fallen Enchantress. Already 33hours played on Steam and still counting. Got my first win on normal and trying out new heros and stuff. I like to combo of the Might&Magic thing ("creeping", items, lvling of heroes) and the Civ part (city building, research). At least it's something refreshing and new. Waiting for the next DLC or exp for Civ5 ...

Same here. Not sure why I can't get into Civ V (I've tried) but FE is a very nice surprise. Great fun.

 

[Rellin]

I have been playing Fallen Enchantress for a couple weeks now and I do really like the game, but the AI needs a lot of work. I only played 60 hours of Civ5 when it came out and have not touched in until yesterday. I decieded to get G&K and give it another shot as it was on sale and read good things. Anyway, I want to play FE more, but for now I am waiting for patches and/or expansions. I hope Stardock make some meaningful improvements to the AI and other bugs soon. The game has great potential, but with most games these days that potential may never be realized.

 

[Bead]

I have gotten CKII and it has totally won me over in an unhealthy way even. Who want to try it MP?

 

[oman19]

I'm still getting all the in's and out's of the game so not sure if I'm quite ready for MP yet but if you want to exchange steam names would be willing to give it a go.

 

[charon2112]

You pick it up yet Charon?

Bought it. It's on sale until January 14th. Definitely one of the best 4x's I've ever played.

 

[oman19]

Picked it up myself but havn't giving it much love yet due to some other games I've picked up during the X-mas sales season.

 

[Civking5]

Since I like fantasy games, I picked up fallen enchantress on steam after reading this thread. In general, I like the game. There is a good feeling in the whole game, and it is like mixture of two games that I liked a lot; Age of wonders and good old Heroes 4.

 

[oman19]

yeah picked up Fallen Enchantress as well in the Strategy First pack on Steam. Also picked up Endless space. Havn't really put any time into either since been so busy during the holidays but will for sure be once I slow down. I'm kind of addicted to Blood Bowl Chaos edition right now.